ADVERTISEMENT

oregon match-up (thread differs from Oregon in this specific area)

tjreese

All-American
Gold Member
Sep 27, 2008
25,839
24,175
113
I have written on zone, match-up and man extensively. A match-up zone is NOT a pure zone. It is attacked as a man defense. Let me repeat that since repetition is sometimes needed ...a match-up is attacked as a man defense... a match-up is attacked as a man defense! I have no idea why people...not picking on anyone, pick up the word zone and think it is a zone with the concepts of the zone that those advocate it is. I even wrote nag that either can't comprehend or refuses to... that I am much more in favor of a match-up than a zone. Since there is no empirical evidence that reality matters with some in this forum, this is going to be very limited relative to the 2-3 match-up that was played (Nag has said he doesn't like a match-up but prefers a pure zone even though I have stated numerous times he was probably seeing match-up and didn't know it...and certainly me trying to provide some understandings doesn't weigh into re-evaluation.

Synopsis. We have zone with various initial alignments that all look the same after a pass or two. Zone primary has bias is to court area. We have man that can conform to the offensive alignment and it too changes with movement of players and ball. Man primary bias is to opposing team personnel or player rather than court. Both zone and man mix the particular court area and personnel with changes trying to provide the best D for the particular team at the moment.

Now match-up...and it is crucial to understand it is attacked as a MAN defense because it is almost identical to man defense with switching rules. Think of a match-up as an attempt to ....drum roll please....MATCH-UP! It is but another attempt to get the best defense possible by combining court area, ball, players as do ALL defenses. Soooo, it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observers the similarities and different leanings , but I know that is NOT true based upon repeated typings that haven't ever caught any indication of traction in getting it. The same with shifts or importance or lean in how to accomplish those goals. A match-up essentially tries to start out by developing skill sets relative to general court areas of strength. Obviously since it is attacked as a man defense a match-up to have any effectiveness, but have strong man principles in all players since all will be guarding a "MAN" while trying to keep the defensive player in an area of the court best suited for that defensive player. Essentially, Oregon started out against Kansas with a 2-3 look and then match-up, but with another team may start out in a 1-2-2 set and then match-up out of that alignment. Man defense with "switching rules essentially does the same...except man has that lean to man and match-up will also switch players it is guarding while trying to keep the defensive player in their areas and switch accordingly. Man tries to do that as well. ANYTIME switching is employed whether on the ball or off...communication can be a problem. In a match-up...switching will most likely happen a little more as an attempt to keep players guarding their man in a man on man defense within their area. For years I have found a few games where match-up could have helped Gene...even though he played it more than once in a certain season out of a 1-3-1

Since Oregon will be playing again, perhaps it is a worthy exercise for any interested to see Oregon "pointing" out who they have as the ball comes down (assuming the camera allows) the court so "each player" knows who they are matching up to defend with their man defense rather than guarding an area that would require point to an area instead of a man? This will generally start out with the guard (usually a pg) taking the guy about to come his way on the offensive right side, but doesn't have to be and pointing him out so the others can match-up. You will see the defense "hand off players" as they enter and leave their area to guard a new MAN. You will not see offensive players just line up in a gap in what would a zone would initially allow, but will move and try to have the defense make mistakes in their hand-off "primarily" as people go through the lane and such. Now I have asked why people would prefer a zone over a match-up and to date have no reason supplied as to why, but many posters write about the need to play zone. In Indiana, possibly two of the more heralded coaches to play match-up or "man-zone" were Bill Green at Marion and Bob Fuller at Anderson Highland respectively. Bob would not allow anyone from freshman down to play anything but man since he KNEW man was essential to being able to play his man zone. I used to have a defensive handbook that Gerald Manahan had in the late 50's to early 60' (his son Pat was a childhood friend that was a high scorer in Indiana basketball without the 3 ball that played one year at Purdue before transferring to Colorado and is an attorney today in Monticello.) The defense that Gerald ran was a "RULE" defense that was essentially a match-up years before the match-up more properly described what was going on. now remember...players are matching up with opposing players by pointing them out...not pointing out what area of the court is theirs.... ;)
 
Last edited:
I have written on zone, match-up and man extensively. A match-up zone is NOT a pure zone. It is attacked as a man defense. Let me repeat that since repetition is sometimes needed ...a match-up is attacked as a man defense... a match-up is attacked as a man defense! I have no idea why people...not picking on anyone, pick up the word zone and think it is a zone with the concepts of the zone that those advocate it is. I even wrote nag that either can't comprehend or refuses to... that I am much more in favor of a match-up than a zone. Since there is no empirical evidence that reality matters with some in this forum, this is going to be very limited relative to the 2-3 match-up that was played (Nag has said he doesn't like a match-up but prefers a pure zone even though I have stated numerous times he was probably seeing match-up and didn't know it...and certainly me trying to provide some understandings doesn't weigh into re-evaluation.

Synopsis. We have zone with various initial alignments that all look the same after a pass or two. Zone primary has bias is to court area. We have man that can conform to the offensive alignment and it too changes with movement of players and ball. Man primary bias is to opposing team personnel or player rather than court. Both zone and man mix the particular court area and personnel with changes trying to provide the best D for the particular team at the moment.

Now match-up...and it is crucial to understand it is attacked as a MAN defense because it is almost identical to man defense with switching rules. Think of a match-up as an attempt to ....drum roll please....MATCH-UP! It is but another attempt to get the best defense possible by combining court area, ball, players as do ALL defenses. Soooo, it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observers the similarities and different leanings , but I know that is NOT true based upon repeated typings that haven't ever caught any indication of traction in getting it. The same with shifts or importance or lean in how to accomplish those goals. A match-up essentially tries to start out by developing skill sets relative to general court areas of strength. Obviously since it is attacked as a man defense a match-up to have any effectiveness, but have strong man principles in all players since all will be guarding a "MAN" while trying to keep the defensive player in an area of the court best suited for that defensive player. Essentially, Oregon started out against Kansas with a 2-3 look and then match-up, but with another team may start out in a 1-2-2 set and then match-up out of that alignment. Man defense with "switching rules essentially does the same...except man has that lean to man and match-up will also switch players it is guarding while trying to keep the defensive player in their areas and switch accordingly. Man tries to do that as well. ANYTIME switching is employed whether on the ball or off...communication can be a problem. In a match-up...switching will most likely happen a little more as an attempt to keep players guarding their man in a man on man defense within their area. For years I have found a few games where match-up could have helped Gene...even though he played it more than once in a certain season out of a 1-3-1

Since Oregon will be playing again, perhaps it is a worthy exercise for any interested to see Oregon "pointing" out who they have as the ball comes down (assuming the camera allows) the court so "each player" knows who they are matching up to defend with their man defense rather than guarding an area that would require point to an area instead of a man? This will generally start out with the guard (usually a pg) taking the guy about to come his way on the offensive right side, but doesn't have to be and pointing him out so the others can match-up. You will see the defense "hand off players" as they enter and leave their area to guard a new MAN. You will not see offensive players just line up in a gap in what would a zone would initially allow, but will move and try to have the defense make mistakes in their hand-off "primarily" as people go through the lane and such. Now I have asked why people would prefer a zone over a match-up and to date have no reason supplied as to why, but many posters write about the need to play zone. In Indiana, possibly two of the more heralded coaches to play match-up or "man-zone" were Bill Green at Marion and Bob Fuller at Anderson Highland respectively. Bob would not allow anyone from freshman down to play anything but man since he KNEW man was essential to being able to play his man zone. I used to have a defensive handbook that Gerald Manahan had in the late 50's to early 60' (his son Pat was a childhood friend that was a high scorer in Indiana basketball without the 3 ball that played one year at Purdue before transferring to Colorado and is an attorney today in Monticello.) The defense that Gerald ran was a "RULE" defense that was essentially a match-up years before the match-up more properly described what was going on. now remember...players are matching up with opposing players by pointing them out...not pointing out what area of the court is theirs.... ;)
I think that Purdue could excel at a matchup in 2018-19 season and beyond as they are going to be less varied in their physical abilities. This my nice way of saying we won't be so damn slow;).
 
I think that Purdue could excel at a matchup in 2018-19 season and beyond as they are going to be less varied in their physical abilities. This my nice way of saying we won't be so damn slow;).
I'm not against a match-up...just a zone! Even then Haas and if Biggie is here...that can still be a problem when teams play 5 behind the arc THAT are a threat. Teh game has "increased" the value of athleticism
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dakota Girl
I have written on zone, match-up and man extensively. A match-up zone is NOT a pure zone. It is attacked as a man defense. Let me repeat that since repetition is sometimes needed ...a match-up is attacked as a man defense... a match-up is attacked as a man defense! I have no idea why people...not picking on anyone, pick up the word zone and think it is a zone with the concepts of the zone that those advocate it is. I even wrote nag that either can't comprehend or refuses to... that I am much more in favor of a match-up than a zone. Since there is no empirical evidence that reality matters with some in this forum, this is going to be very limited relative to the 2-3 match-up that was played (Nag has said he doesn't like a match-up but prefers a pure zone even though I have stated numerous times he was probably seeing match-up and didn't know it...and certainly me trying to provide some understandings doesn't weigh into re-evaluation.

Synopsis. We have zone with various initial alignments that all look the same after a pass or two. Zone primary has bias is to court area. We have man that can conform to the offensive alignment and it too changes with movement of players and ball. Man primary bias is to opposing team personnel or player rather than court. Both zone and man mix the particular court area and personnel with changes trying to provide the best D for the particular team at the moment.

Now match-up...and it is crucial to understand it is attacked as a MAN defense because it is almost identical to man defense with switching rules. Think of a match-up as an attempt to ....drum roll please....MATCH-UP! It is but another attempt to get the best defense possible by combining court area, ball, players as do ALL defenses. Soooo, it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observers the similarities and different leanings , but I know that is NOT true based upon repeated typings that haven't ever caught any indication of traction in getting it. The same with shifts or importance or lean in how to accomplish those goals. A match-up essentially tries to start out by developing skill sets relative to general court areas of strength. Obviously since it is attacked as a man defense a match-up to have any effectiveness, but have strong man principles in all players since all will be guarding a "MAN" while trying to keep the defensive player in an area of the court best suited for that defensive player. Essentially, Oregon started out against Kansas with a 2-3 look and then match-up, but with another team may start out in a 1-2-2 set and then match-up out of that alignment. Man defense with "switching rules essentially does the same...except man has that lean to man and match-up will also switch players it is guarding while trying to keep the defensive player in their areas and switch accordingly. Man tries to do that as well. ANYTIME switching is employed whether on the ball or off...communication can be a problem. In a match-up...switching will most likely happen a little more as an attempt to keep players guarding their man in a man on man defense within their area. For years I have found a few games where match-up could have helped Gene...even though he played it more than once in a certain season out of a 1-3-1

Since Oregon will be playing again, perhaps it is a worthy exercise for any interested to see Oregon "pointing" out who they have as the ball comes down (assuming the camera allows) the court so "each player" knows who they are matching up to defend with their man defense rather than guarding an area that would require point to an area instead of a man? This will generally start out with the guard (usually a pg) taking the guy about to come his way on the offensive right side, but doesn't have to be and pointing him out so the others can match-up. You will see the defense "hand off players" as they enter and leave their area to guard a new MAN. You will not see offensive players just line up in a gap in what would a zone would initially allow, but will move and try to have the defense make mistakes in their hand-off "primarily" as people go through the lane and such. Now I have asked why people would prefer a zone over a match-up and to date have no reason supplied as to why, but many posters write about the need to play zone. In Indiana, possibly two of the more heralded coaches to play match-up or "man-zone" were Bill Green at Marion and Bob Fuller at Anderson Highland respectively. Bob would not allow anyone from freshman down to play anything but man since he KNEW man was essential to being able to play his man zone. I used to have a defensive handbook that Gerald Manahan had in the late 50's to early 60' (his son Pat was a childhood friend that was a high scorer in Indiana basketball without the 3 ball that played one year at Purdue before transferring to Colorado and is an attorney today in Monticello.) The defense that Gerald ran was a "RULE" defense that was essentially a match-up years before the match-up more properly described what was going on. now remember...players are matching up with opposing players by pointing them out...not pointing out what area of the court is theirs.... ;)
Y'all are wasting valuable time with such a lengthy discourse. Trying to discuss/educate Nag et al on any topic that doesn't benefit the CMP SUX coalition is time you could spend sleeping, drinking or some other enjoyable pursuit. You can't get those minutes back.
 
Y'all are wasting valuable time with such a lengthy discourse. Trying to discuss/educate Nag et al on any topic that doesn't benefit the CMP SUX coalition is time you could spend sleeping, drinking or some other enjoyable pursuit. You can't get those minutes back.
I know, but there could be some that haven't posted or do post that might really want to think about what I posted. Thec can draw their own conclusions, but knowledge they may not have held may help. FWIW, I lost electricity at 5 AM and I hear things shutting down and then I wake up to call in teh outage...get texts that it should return by 7 and awake. I take some medicine to get into REM sleep since I used to wake up at Purdue and write down answers when I woke up solving them while asleep.

I know Nag will hold his feelings, but I really believe a LOT of people that want a zone...actually want a match-up and I was attempting to provide some info on all three (did this before) so that others might know a little more of what they say...unless they actually want a pure zone as seen many times in high school. Unfortunately, I probably have wasted a lot of my life with similar things. Years ago in a great motivational book called The Edge written by Howard Ferguson was a poem that STUCK with me called the Bridge Builder. I find a lot of my life trying to be that Bridge Builder for whatever reason...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/1f/09/3b/1f093b1041949a46611e4ff82fe5623a.jpg
 
regarding being slow and having athleticism...
are you referring to primarily down low, at guard, or all?
 
regarding being slow and having athleticism...
are you referring to primarily down low, at guard, or all?
Biker not sure if your asking me but I'll stick my nose in anyway.
I think it is most pronounced of an issue at guard and wing but clearly teams like Michigan and Oregon used 6'10" or under athletic 5's and it is working well under the new rules.
If Haarms is mobile enough to defend a Wagner type we could be in good shape there for a while.
 
Biker not sure if your asking me but I'll stick my nose in anyway.
I think it is most pronounced of an issue at guard and wing but clearly teams like Michigan and Oregon used 6'10" or under athletic 5's and it is working well under the new rules.
If Haarms is mobile enough to defend a Wagner type we could be in good shape there for a while.
thanks!
i just try to equate that with the scenarios when we planned on using zone and haas and hammons together going into the 2014 season.

rule changes/emphasis have altered this, but not entirely 100%?
(more freedom to ballhandlers on perimeter, driving in lane, etc. But low post play still seems pretty physical despite it being mentioned by the rules oversight panel )
 
regarding being slow and having athleticism...
are you referring to primarily down low, at guard, or all?
just so I communicate as well as possible. Athleticism to "me" means quickness, jumping ability and strength for the size in question. I do see Purdue being athletic..more than some, but not at the elite level and not at the typical major conference level. I see Purdue as a skilled team that is cerebral...generally. :)
I differ from some in that I think Purdue was really behind before the Matt contract. I think trying to fill that void Matt was behind and got what he could and obviously the culture wasn't what was needed by some. I think the junior class is a step to right the ship with some really good kids, that work hard, work as a team adn are skilled. That skill was needed when it was apparent that Terone and Ronnie were more athletic in some ways, but not as skilled. Terone was kinda caught ina s size mismatch with skill and Ronnie had his issues that differed in the team. I think Purdue has got more athletes for next year, but still not at the level as many teams that Purdue will be playing. Purdue may have a little more skill than some of those teams that are more athletic. IMO as I have said repeatedly...recruiting is key and not sure how much of that is to blame on Matt. I know I think he is less of a variable than many.

All that said, the rules and whistle helps teh athlete today,b ut I think it is crucial that you have skill with the athleticism. Carsen is fast for Purdue, but Kansas had two guards much quicker, more skilled and played smarter...but Carsen is a freshman as well. When I saw about two minutes early in the season by Butler...I told my family I really liked this Baldwin kid. He generally plays smart, can hit the shot...get to the rim AND make the basket. No, I do not consider Purdue athletic at any spot, but do think it will be better next year. Nojel will have teh size, passing ability and ability to get to the rim and finish and I expect Purdue to really like this kid. Wheeler, can shoot the ball, run teh court and has some vertical...can he handle the physical play as a freshman or put the ball on the court wiht the other that diminishes what liability he may have on defense...wait and see how quickly he helps Purdue. Ewing, hs not put forth the kind of effort I would like...hope that was something there and not Purdue. Haams, excited to see if he can pass at 7"2 enough to be a threat at 15 feet and still see over teh top of the D to feed the post...intrigued to see what he brings. Taylor...will he always be hurt? Great kid...want to see him get it going for Purdue AND him. Sasha, not sure he will be seeing the court as much with Cline (who now tries to drive the ball some), Dakota, Carsen and Nojel playng some minutes. If Cline can improve his D like Dakota did between his soph adn junior years...that would be great.

An athlete was Bell from Oregon...strong, good jumper and quick...much better on teh ball court than the interview where every other word was "man".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dakota Girl
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT