On topic for the Academics Conversations
- Thread starter Do Dah Day
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I like the fact we are in the top 20 for public universities. and also that we are improving our status. But in praising our school, we should also reflect and praise the others in the BIG 10 and also review how good/bad some of the more famous schools are. . Notre Dame was 15th in the overall rankings. Purdue was 55th overall. IU was 90th. Rose Hulman's Engineering school was rated #1 for schools not offering a Doctorate Degree.
In the overall ratings, it was nice to see the Univ of Chicago at #3 overall. Duke was #9. Northwestern was 11. Michigan was #28. UNC was #30. Ga tech was #34. UWis was #46. Illinois was #52. Penn St was #52 . OSU was #54. Texas was #56 Maryland was #61. Rutgers was #69. Minn was #69. Iowa was #78 MSU was 81. Ok was 97. tenn was 103. Alabama was 110. Iowa st was a surprisingly low #115. Kansas was also #115. Mizzou was #120. Nebraska was 124. Florida was #42. Georgia was a surprising #54 Univ of Kentucky was #133.
I've said all along the BIG 10 has some very good schools, and that academically, most of the Schools in the BIG 10 are all about equal. I was a little surprised Iowa and IU were rated so low. I was not surprised by Nebraska's or Uk's low ratings.
In reviewing the rankings, if the BIG 10 wanted to increase its conference based on maintaining a high academic standard rather than TV cable ratings, here's a short list of schools I'd recommend Notre Dame (18) , Ga Tech ( 34) , Texas ( 56), Virginia (25) Syracuse (61) or Pitt (69) or Texas A &M (69) . I believe in adding any 2 of these schools, the BIG 10 would maintain its academic excellence and also provide some exciting sports activities.
And when thinking about Purdue, rather than looking at just numbers, look at the schools it was on par with - Texas, Syracuse, Georgia, OSU, Penn St , Ill, UW, UCONN, Villanova, U of Wash, BYU. these are all fine academic schools.
In the overall ratings, it was nice to see the Univ of Chicago at #3 overall. Duke was #9. Northwestern was 11. Michigan was #28. UNC was #30. Ga tech was #34. UWis was #46. Illinois was #52. Penn St was #52 . OSU was #54. Texas was #56 Maryland was #61. Rutgers was #69. Minn was #69. Iowa was #78 MSU was 81. Ok was 97. tenn was 103. Alabama was 110. Iowa st was a surprisingly low #115. Kansas was also #115. Mizzou was #120. Nebraska was 124. Florida was #42. Georgia was a surprising #54 Univ of Kentucky was #133.
I've said all along the BIG 10 has some very good schools, and that academically, most of the Schools in the BIG 10 are all about equal. I was a little surprised Iowa and IU were rated so low. I was not surprised by Nebraska's or Uk's low ratings.
In reviewing the rankings, if the BIG 10 wanted to increase its conference based on maintaining a high academic standard rather than TV cable ratings, here's a short list of schools I'd recommend Notre Dame (18) , Ga Tech ( 34) , Texas ( 56), Virginia (25) Syracuse (61) or Pitt (69) or Texas A &M (69) . I believe in adding any 2 of these schools, the BIG 10 would maintain its academic excellence and also provide some exciting sports activities.
And when thinking about Purdue, rather than looking at just numbers, look at the schools it was on par with - Texas, Syracuse, Georgia, OSU, Penn St , Ill, UW, UCONN, Villanova, U of Wash, BYU. these are all fine academic schools.
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I don't know how Purdue does today. I know it was a fine school and believe it to be so today as well. However, you won't find any reports on actual learning because they don't exist. You will find perceptions based upon variables considered important that could lead to more learning. This is a nice selling point and does list potential variables of importance. This is good public info...
One factor in these rankings that helps some schools, especially private schools, to be ranked high is how many applicants they turn away. It is far more important what their graduates end up doing.
Yeah, I understand that...and I certainly don't want to downgrade the rating, because it is nice. I just want to point out that "excellent" schools are not rated on what is learned. That doesn't mean that excellent schools are not excellent schools. As far as networking or what happens later some schools provide more than others...and at various levels. I have a brother-in-law that was an academic recruiter for Butler for a few years.
Here is an interesting thought..or at least I think so. We can never measure what someone has learned. We can only measure what a person has not learned and assume the inverse is true (those that miss less learned more)...all due to a finite set of questions.
I have taught a customized class that is essentially "how to get a great job." It encompasses resume's/cover letters, research into the company, company mission statements, company culture, getting an interview, preparing for the interview, going through the interview, and more. I did a lot of research into what companies want ... and can't find.Yeah, I understand that...and I certainly don't want to downgrade the rating, because it is nice. I just want to point out that "excellent" schools are not rated on what is learned. That doesn't mean that excellent schools are not excellent schools. As far as networking or what happens later some schools provide more than others...and at various levels. I have a brother-in-law that was an academic recruiter for Butler for a few years.
Here is an interesting thought..or at least I think so. We can never measure what someone has learned. We can only measure what a person has not learned and assume the inverse is true (those that miss less learned more)...all due to a finite set of questions.
1. critical thinking
2. problem solving
3. listening and communication skills
Most great companies incorporate testing of these skills into their interview process. There is a great list of questions that some of the better companies ask their interviewees. All require critical thinking, problem solving, and communicating why the conclusion they reach is the best one.
Have at it ... LOL
no surprise to me. My point was that "learning" as the real measure of a school is not measured rather than the networking and such. Having a brother-in-law that worked in personnel at Cummins for a few years he would be quick to tell you the engineers that get ahead are not the smart ones in many cases, but the ones that present themselves well.
I worked with the IT industry for 20 years. An engineer who has people skills .... PLATINUM or higher, whatever is the most rare thing there is ... and usually valued and coveted.
One of my teaching mantras has always been "If you have the greatest solution to the #1 problem, but can't communicate it well .... you've got nothing.
Story Time: I had an IT engineer go onsite for a new (first experience) client who had potential to grow into a substantial client. He sat in front of the server he was going to work on (I think it was an exchange server), did some pecking on the keyboard, checked a few things, then turned to the company's IT manager who was standing behind him and said, "Who in the hell built this piece of shit?" .... well hell, that relationship was not going to go well.
What's the old adage? There are only two rules....
1. The Customer/Client ALWAYS comes first.
2. See Rule #1.
for a salesperson, yes. For an engineer - I AM the prima donna in this room, and who are you Mr. Client? OH NO - I've now angered all my engineer friends. All I wanted to do was emphasize the importance of people/communication skills ...
Reminds me of an engineering student I knew at Purdue. He was brilliant, but you could not get through a conversation with him without being insulted. Once you got to know him it wouldn't bother you anymore. So, he couldn't get through a job interview without insulting some of the interviewers. So I don't think he ever got hired. If he could have ever gotten his foot in the door he would have done fine. They would have gotten used to him and utilized his brilliance, but he couldn't help himself for long enough to get his foot in the door.
I think engineers many times are factual, blunt and can be short with those lacking some knowledge...and it can come back to hurt you. Most the population doesn't have the thought process and you must deal where most are...
I had a company who tried to design a room in which to put an engineer. It had no door, just a conveyor belt. They put the servers on the belt, along with food and water. They thought that would be a perfect situation for this guy, or fire him for total prima-donna-ness
I hear you....the ability to provide clear, concise, and persuasive communication is a transcendent skill, whatever the field or endeavor. Also, I have several good friends who are engineers, and my eldest brother is a civil engineer.
On the other hand, in the military I was a program manager with engineers, information systems guys and installers working for me. the military thought my EE degree was perfect for the job. For those who've read some of my posts, EE does not stand for any engineering degree. To talk to these engineers in simple terms they could understand, they brought in a guy with an elem ..ed degree. it worked out great. We were building something called a milnet and then sold it to ATT that changed the name mil to inter. I'm told it's still working today, just a tad bit faster than 2400 baud.
Oh my God! We are talking with Al Gore. And he is a Purdue fan. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. Tell me it isn't so!
me and Al were tight. Then he stole my baby - my billion dollar program - and sold it for commercial use. I've run into some people who recognized my name on some of the contracts for the initial hard wire installation of the infrastructure in the US and Europe. they said thanks, and our collective team did a great job, but it was their job to replace all the millions of miles of wiring our team installed with T1 and fiber. And what was my real job ? Simply to allow my engineers and installers and coders some breathing room to do their jobs. Rather than questioning their ability, I just said here is the due date. We finished a 6 year world wide installation in 3 years. Rather than going to Iraq, that's what I did during Desert Storm.
I spent three years talking that language. it's almost like learning a totally new foreign language to translate what that picture means in English. That's basically a diagram of the backbone of the hardwire infrastructure that is now used to support the internet . and one of the reasons certain areas of the country have bad/slow service. There are parts of our country with a very limited hardwire backbone. Although if you look at the 1986 date, the infrastructure has been updated and expanded. I'm not an engineer. But I know what it means to be one. they do a lot of great work that is never seen or known. .
I made all my kids go to toastmasters in HS. Probably the best thing that I could have ever done.
I would agree. we did not have toastmasters, but did have forensics and debate. Extracurricular activities such as these do make a difference.
WOW - I mean it - WOW! That is an incredible idea .... I need to spread this .... thanks.
Too much time is spent by undergrads learning the basics of their craft. Freshman English and Com 114 won't make you an effective communicator. I became much more accomplished at communication both written and verbal in grad school. Taking a group counseling course in the Psych department didn't hurt one bit either.
Too many students today know everything in how to ace a test. That appears to be what half of their high school education is dedicated to achieving. Very few students have a clue at how to apply what they have learned.
I took a business communications course at UTSA. I will always remember the first rule in communications: know your audience! The second rule was ask for feedback to make sure they understand what you have said. My Purdue chemistry professor Robinson was a brilliant chemist and professor. But he was close to being the worst communicator of his knowledge. I learned nothing about chemistry from him.
I'd settle for Internet faster than the old dial up at my house. If I ever sell I'm not telling prospective buyers about this negative.
I don't ever claim to have a master knowledge of my field I teach but I have worked very hard on my communication skills to be able to make my discipline fun for my kids. It's one thing to have an incredible amount of content knowledge...it's totally different to be able to convey that knowledge in a manner that teenagers don't simply snooze on you.
rules for an effective teacher:
1. Engage
2. ENGAGE
3. TRULY ENGAGE
4. add a pinch of passion
5. and have decent grasp of the material
I hated, HATED, being a service managers at the auto dealership I worked at. But, it taught me how to speak. I can talk to anyone, rich, poor, smart, dumb, young, old democrat, republican...anyone. That skill has served me well at the hospital I work for. I also have the pleasure of being a preceptor for the X-ray students.
Preceptors deserve a special place in Heaven ... as do dealership service managers ... You doubled up
Depends on the shop. I can honestly say, in spite of the pressure from my boss, I never ripped people off...try to upsell ? sure, but I left that place with my dignity. Still, I got called every name in the book so when a doctor freaks, I'm pffft...I love teaching...didn't think I would.
