Oath Keepers trial starts today

HoosierfanJM

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Wrong!

When you are using a web site that cites the Epoch Times as its news source, and the Epoch Times article uses conclusions from Kash Patel? That is scraping the bottom of the bottom of the sub-barrel. Here's Kash at a book signing:

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SKYDOG

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Lol … Kash Patel says stuff to the Epoch Times or the person in charge of the defense under oath (and threat of perjury if he lies) … do i really have to give you a decision chart here?
People lie under oath all the time right. People believe who they choose to believe. I have no idea anymore on who is telling the truth and who is lying.
 
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bear_down_chicago_89

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People lie under oath all the time right. People believe who they choose to believe. I have no idea anymore on who is telling the truth and who is lying.
The person in question was working for Trump and has continued to be a supporter of Trump. Why would he lie in his testimony? There is no physical evidence of any kind that Trump actually ordered any guard or that any request was turned down by House (run by Pelosi) or Senate (run by Mitch at that time).

This is not really one of those ‘I cant figure out who to believe situations’.
 

HoosierfanJM

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People lie under oath all the time right. People believe who they choose to believe. I have no idea anymore on who is telling the truth and who is lying.
Your first two sentences are completely fair.

As for the having no idea who to believe, I get that and it's depressing/frustrating to have that mindset, but there is ability to assess and reject someone's credibility. That doesn't mean that everything they might say is untrue; just means that they cannot be trusted.

An off-topic example? Fidelity Investments might have a lying, fraud-motivated employee, but the organization has a proven track record of managerial credibility and professionalism. You may disagree with their managerial or investment decisions in their managed funds, but the company has integrity as a whole.

Compare them to the random Nigerian oil well/rich uncle investment. While there may be a kernel of truth in that email, there are serious, entrenched credibility issues that are overwhelming.

Kash Patel, or anyone that ascribes to QAnon and highlights it in their children's book singing is a red light, five alarm siren, credibility loser. This is a guy that believes that Donald Trump is waging a secret war against a cabal of satanic cannibalistic pedophiles within Hollywood, the Democratic Party, and the so-called “deep state” within the United States government.
 
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BoilerJS

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The person in question was working for Trump and has continued to be a supporter of Trump. Why would he lie in his testimony? There is no physical evidence of any kind that Trump actually ordered any guard or that any request was turned down by House (run by Pelosi) or Senate (run by Mitch at that time).

This is not really one of those ‘I cant figure out who to believe situations’.
FYI, the POTUS can only offer the NG for use.
I don't believe he can order the NG without them being requested.
So I didn't hear the testimony under oath but I did hear multiple sources say Trump offerred the NG to DC.
A good lawyer would ask if Trump ordered the NG to DC. The answer would be no he didn't.
And with no chance for cross examination it looks bad for Trump. But that is the whole reason for this circus.
 

bear_down_chicago_89

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FYI, the POTUS can only offer the NG for use.
I don't believe he can order the NG without them being requested.
I believe you are correct there, but the point being debated was if Trump offered the NG and Pelosi turned it down (which has been pushed by Trump and his allies repeatedly). Again ... there is no actual evidence that happened.

It's also relevant to point out that the Capitol Police is overseen by a group of people including both House (Pelosi) and Senate (Mitch at the time). So if you want to knock them for not being prepared, it's both Mitch and Pelosi in that situation as both chambers were in session that day.
 

Boilermaker03

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That is another lie. Pelosi never turned down the National Guard. They don't have any power to deploy them anyhow. That is the responsibility of the president. Either way, when all this went down, Chump didn't care enough about democracy to deploy the National Guard or any other means to stop these MAGGOT deplorables.
Your "facts" are woefully incorrect.
 

bear_down_chicago_89

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So I didn't hear the testimony under oath but I did hear multiple sources say Trump offerred the NG to DC.
A good lawyer would ask if Trump ordered the NG to DC. The answer would be no he didn't.
And with no chance for cross examination it looks bad for Trump. But that is the whole reason for this circus.
I don't believe anyone has said that under oath. Multiple people have said that in the media.

It's not a trial and for the record, the GOP declined the chance for a jointly owned investigation ... again that was Mitch's call.
 

Boilermaker03

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bear_down_chicago_89

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You're going to have to show me where he gave any kind of order. This is the most relevant part i see on Page 77, unless i'm missing something. It is stated that he concurred on the Metro police request for assistance (notably NOT the Capitol Police). He asked Miller if they were prepared in a 15 to 30 second hallway conversation.


Around 1:00 p.m. on January 3, Mr. Miller hosted a “Cabinet-level synchronization and coordination call.”538 Mr. Miller told the Committees that he initiated the call for two reasons, “[o]ne was to share information so we could coordinate and synchronize, and number two, I wanted to make sure that . . . they knew that any request for Department of Defense support, that it was legit, I was happy to provide.”539 Generally, Mr. Miller “wanted to make sure everybody was talking and that we weren’t going to get surprised.”540 Mr. Miller stated that during this meeting, DOJ was reminded that it typically serves as the lead federal agency for domestic law enforcement activities.541 Later that afternoon, Mr. Miller and General Milley met with President Trump, who concurred in the activation of DCNG to support law enforcement.542 According to Mr. Miller, the meeting with the President was scheduled to discuss a separate issue, unrelated to the January 6 Joint Session of Congress.543 At the end of the meeting, President Trump brought up the Joint Session, asking Mr. Miller whether they were prepared.544 Mr. Miller told the Committees that the conversation with President Trump about January 6 was “a 15-second, 30-second conversation. It was an in passing, kind of what else is going on type thing.”545 When asked whether President Trump had a role in the approval process for the Mayor’s request, Mr. Miller told the Committees no, because President Trump “had delegated that authority and authorization to me” so there was no requirement for Mr. Miller to get the 535 Id. at 44:7–15. 536 Gen. McConville Interview, supra note 482, at 19:9–12. 537 Pittman Interview (Apr. 22, 2021), supra note 20, at 27:3, 9–11. 538 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 30:21–24. According to DOD records, the meeting included the Acting Attorney General, Secretary of the Interior, Acting Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, and National Security Advisor. OFFICE OF THE SEC’Y OF DEF. MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD, supra note 114, at 1. Mr. Miller recalled that a senior official “from [DHS’s] operations side” joined the call, but he did not remember if the Acting Secretary of Defense also joined the call. Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 31:8–17. 539 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 33:17–21. 540 Id. at 34:14–15. 541 Id. at 35:4–8. When asked whether DOJ was the lead Federal agency during the summer 2020 protests, Mr. Miller stated that he did not know, but he assumed so based on “standard practices.” Id. at 35:9–14. 542 DEP’T OF DEF. TIMELINE, supra note 86, at 1. 543 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 36:16–19. 544 Id. at 37:15–24. 545 Id. at 37:22–24. 78 President’s approval.546 Mr. McCarthy, who did not attend the meeting with the President, suggested to the Committees that the President delegated authorization authority to Mr. Miller during the meeting, adding that “t’s the President’s ultimate authority to put Guardsmen in D.C., so yes. Normally you inform [the President], at least some communication, a courtesy, to either the President directly or to the Chief of Staff to let him know, and if the President wants to discuss, obviously it is his discretion.”547
 

BuilderBob6

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Wrong!

You can’t use “Launch Liberty” and Kash Patel as sources. Cmon.
 
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Boilermaker03

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You're going to have to show me where he gave any kind of order. This is the most relevant part i see on Page 77, unless i'm missing something. It is stated that he concurred on the Metro police request for assistance (notably NOT the Capitol Police). He asked Miller if they were prepared in a 15 to 30 second hallway conversation.


Around 1:00 p.m. on January 3, Mr. Miller hosted a “Cabinet-level synchronization and coordination call.”538 Mr. Miller told the Committees that he initiated the call for two reasons, “[o]ne was to share information so we could coordinate and synchronize, and number two, I wanted to make sure that . . . they knew that any request for Department of Defense support, that it was legit, I was happy to provide.”539 Generally, Mr. Miller “wanted to make sure everybody was talking and that we weren’t going to get surprised.”540 Mr. Miller stated that during this meeting, DOJ was reminded that it typically serves as the lead federal agency for domestic law enforcement activities.541 Later that afternoon, Mr. Miller and General Milley met with President Trump, who concurred in the activation of DCNG to support law enforcement.542 According to Mr. Miller, the meeting with the President was scheduled to discuss a separate issue, unrelated to the January 6 Joint Session of Congress.543 At the end of the meeting, President Trump brought up the Joint Session, asking Mr. Miller whether they were prepared.544 Mr. Miller told the Committees that the conversation with President Trump about January 6 was “a 15-second, 30-second conversation. It was an in passing, kind of what else is going on type thing.”545 When asked whether President Trump had a role in the approval process for the Mayor’s request, Mr. Miller told the Committees no, because President Trump “had delegated that authority and authorization to me” so there was no requirement for Mr. Miller to get the 535 Id. at 44:7–15. 536 Gen. McConville Interview, supra note 482, at 19:9–12. 537 Pittman Interview (Apr. 22, 2021), supra note 20, at 27:3, 9–11. 538 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 30:21–24. According to DOD records, the meeting included the Acting Attorney General, Secretary of the Interior, Acting Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, and National Security Advisor. OFFICE OF THE SEC’Y OF DEF. MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD, supra note 114, at 1. Mr. Miller recalled that a senior official “from [DHS’s] operations side” joined the call, but he did not remember if the Acting Secretary of Defense also joined the call. Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 31:8–17. 539 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 33:17–21. 540 Id. at 34:14–15. 541 Id. at 35:4–8. When asked whether DOJ was the lead Federal agency during the summer 2020 protests, Mr. Miller stated that he did not know, but he assumed so based on “standard practices.” Id. at 35:9–14. 542 DEP’T OF DEF. TIMELINE, supra note 86, at 1. 543 Miller Interview, supra note 479, at 36:16–19. 544 Id. at 37:15–24. 545 Id. at 37:22–24. 78 President’s approval.546 Mr. McCarthy, who did not attend the meeting with the President, suggested to the Committees that the President delegated authorization authority to Mr. Miller during the meeting, adding that “t’s the President’s ultimate authority to put Guardsmen in D.C., so yes. Normally you inform [the President], at least some communication, a courtesy, to either the President directly or to the Chief of Staff to let him know, and if the President wants to discuss, obviously it is his discretion.”547
You missed a part.

Take this in conjunction with the other link.


Sunday, January 3, 2021
DoD confirms with U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) that there is no request for DoD support.
• A/SD meets with select Cabinet Members to discuss DoD support to law enforcement
agencies and potential requirements for DoD support.
• A/SD and CJCS meet with the President. President concurs in activation of the DCNG to
support law enforcement.
Monday, January 4, 2021
• USCP confirms there is no requirement for DoD support in a phone call with SECARMY.
The A/SD, in consultation with CJCS, SECARMY, and DoD General Counsel (GC), reviews
the Department’s plan to be prepared to provide support to civil authorities, if asked, and
approves activation of 340 members of the DCNG to support Mayor Bowser’s request.

o Support provided in response to Mayor Bowser’s request includes support at:
 Traffic Control Points: 90 personnel (180 total/2 shifts); Metro station
support: 24 personnel (48 total/2 shifts); Weapons of Mass Destruction Civil
Support Team: 20 personnel; and Internal Command and Control: 52
personnel.
o A/SD also authorizes SECARMY to deploy a Quick Reaction Force (40 personnel
staged at Joint Base Andrews) if additional support is requested by civil authorities.
Tuesday, January 5, 2021
Mayor Bowser delivers a letter addressed to the Acting Attorney General, A/SD, and
SECARMY confirming that there are no additional support requirements from the D.C.

• 255 DCNG arrive in D.C. and begin to manage traffic control points alongside local law
enforcement.
 

Boilermaker03

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Miller contradicted himself on the subject. He’s a joke and a trump stooge installed at the 11th hour.

Actually no. He said Trump did not order troops to be deployed. Which would be correct. Because if Trump did, he would have broken the law. What Trump can and did do was make the troops available. It was up to the Mayor and Capitol Police (who report to Pelosi) to request them.

The left and media are playing word tricks. They keep saying that Trump didn't order troops to be deployed, which is correct. What he did do was make them available, which is what he can and should have done.
 
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BNIBoiler

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Your "facts" are woefully incorrect.
I think y'all are the ones that are incorrect. Y'all really need to stop watching Faux News.


 
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Boilermaker03

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I think y'all are the ones that are incorrect. Y'all really need to stop watching Faux News.


Please read my post just above yours and you will see that you've been fooled. Yet again...

BTW the NYTimes and Politifact are a joke. They are playing word games. They are saying it's false because Nanci Pelosi didn't reject the troops. Well of course, there's no direct evidence of that, but that's not the real issue.
 

bear_down_chicago_89

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You missed a part.

Take this in conjunction with the other link.


Sunday, January 3, 2021
DoD confirms with U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) that there is no request for DoD support.
• A/SD meets with select Cabinet Members to discuss DoD support to law enforcement
agencies and potential requirements for DoD support.
• A/SD and CJCS meet with the President. President concurs in activation of the DCNG to
support law enforcement.
Monday, January 4, 2021
• USCP confirms there is no requirement for DoD support in a phone call with SECARMY.
The A/SD, in consultation with CJCS, SECARMY, and DoD General Counsel (GC), reviews
the Department’s plan to be prepared to provide support to civil authorities, if asked, and
approves activation of 340 members of the DCNG to support Mayor Bowser’s request.

o Support provided in response to Mayor Bowser’s request includes support at:
 Traffic Control Points: 90 personnel (180 total/2 shifts); Metro station
support: 24 personnel (48 total/2 shifts); Weapons of Mass Destruction Civil
Support Team: 20 personnel; and Internal Command and Control: 52
personnel.
o A/SD also authorizes SECARMY to deploy a Quick Reaction Force (40 personnel
staged at Joint Base Andrews) if additional support is requested by civil authorities.
Tuesday, January 5, 2021
Mayor Bowser delivers a letter addressed to the Acting Attorney General, A/SD, and
SECARMY confirming that there are no additional support requirements from the D.C.

• 255 DCNG arrive in D.C. and begin to manage traffic control points alongside local law
enforcement.
Ok, those points confirm Trump approved (but didn't himself order, rather agreed with his team's plan) to send 340 National Guard Resources to support Mayor Bowser (and the Metro police) and her request for support.

There was no offer of 10,000 NG troops to the Capitol Police that Pelosi or Mitch or anybody else associated with the Capitol Police refused or any request on their part.

So no, Trump didn't order 10,000 NG troops that Pelosi turned down.
 

BNIBoiler

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Actually no. He said Trump did not order troops to be deployed. Which would be correct. Because if Trump did, he would have broken the law. What Trump can and did do was make the troops available. It was up to the Mayor and Capitol Police (who report to Pelosi) to request them.

The left and media are playing word tricks. They keep saying that Trump didn't order troops to be deployed, which is correct. What he did do was make them available, which is what he can and should have done.
I figured that you would twist yourselves into knots defending this fool. Dude, the National Guard is always available. The DC National Guard reports only to the president, not Pelosi. Pelosi wasn't even asked because it is not her call.

 

Boilermaker03

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I figured that you would twist yourselves into knots defending this fool. Dude, the National Guard is always available. The DC National Guard reports only to the president, not Pelosi. Pelosi wasn't even asked because it is not her call.

We aren't the one's twisting into knots. It's the media and the Democrats that are twisting words and you're not picking up on the nuance.
 

BNIBoiler

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We aren't the one's twisting into knots. It's the media and the Democrats that are twisting words and you're not picking up on the nuance.
Dude, I just posted DIRECTLY from the DC National Guard website. Where does it say that the Speaker of the House can deploy the troops?
 

Riveting-

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Dude, I just posted DIRECTLY from the DC National Guard website. Where does it say that the Speaker of the House can deploy the troops?
FauxGrad, if Trump failed in not ordering the National Guard to deploy, we could be sure that failure would be highlighted in a dem show trial designed solely to discredit Trump.

Has it been? Have Pelosi or Bowser been called to 'testify' ?
 

SKYDOG

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The person in question was working for Trump and has continued to be a supporter of Trump. Why would he lie in his testimony? There is no physical evidence of any kind that Trump actually ordered any guard or that any request was turned down by House (run by Pelosi) or Senate (run by Mitch at that time).

This is not really one of those ‘I cant figure out who to believe situations’.
People lie just because they want to see harm to someone. Others lie so they can get paid. Others lie as they feel threatened. The press lies as they have an agenda or a boss to satisfy (Jeff Zucker.)
 

SKYDOG

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Your first two sentences are completely fair.

As for the having no idea who to believe, I get that and it's depressing/frustrating to have that mindset, but there is ability to assess and reject someone's credibility. That doesn't mean that everything they might say is untrue; just means that they cannot be trusted.

An off-topic example? Fidelity Investments might have a lying, fraud-motivated employee, but the organization has a proven track record of managerial credibility and professionalism. You may disagree with their managerial or investment decisions in their managed funds, but the company has integrity as a whole.

Compare them to the random Nigerian oil well/rich uncle investment. While there may be a kernel of truth in that email, there are serious, entrenched credibility issues that are overwhelming.

Kash Patel, or anyone that ascribes to QAnon and highlights it in their children's book singing is a red light, five alarm siren, credibility loser. This is a guy that believes that Donald Trump is waging a secret war against a cabal of satanic cannibalistic pedophiles within Hollywood, the Democratic Party, and the so-called “deep state” within the United States government.
Using your example Fidelity, people in the organization today are there to enrich themselves and make the company more money. All organizations are the same. Hospitals most certainly help people, but they also help themselves. They administer wasteful tests to generate money.

I’m sorry that integrity has fallen by the wayside in my mind. I really struggle to believe most anything today unless I see or hear it first hand.
 

Boilermaker03

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Dude, I just posted DIRECTLY from the DC National Guard website. Where does it say that the Speaker of the House can deploy the troops?
It's not the National Guard, it's the Capitol Police. Trump made the National Guard available to the Capitol Police (as he is allowed to), and multiple times the Capitol Police denied their help.
 
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bear_down_chicago_89

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People lie just because they want to see harm to someone. Others lie so they can get paid. Others lie as they feel threatened. The press lies as they have an agenda or a boss to satisfy (Jeff Zucker.)
Sure and it's fine to be skeptical of anything anyone says (especially the media), however, when people give testimony under threat of perjury, it tends to be more credible. Also the other evidence we've seen also corroborates what he said.
 

BNIBoiler

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It's not the National Guard, it's the Capitol Police. Trump made the National Guard available to the Capitol Police (as he is allowed to), and multiple times the Capitol Police denied their help.
The link I posted was from the actual DC National Guard. Not the Capitol police. Again, the DC National Guard is who the President or the Sec. of Defense deploys when it comes to events in Washington DC.

I thought y’all said that Nancy Pelosi turned down the National Guard. Now it’s the Capitol Police. Which is it? What is your source that Capitol Police turned down the National Guard? Faux News? You are the biggest Chump knot twister on this site.
 

Boilermaker03

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The link I posted was from the actual DC National Guard. Not the Capitol police. Again, the DC National Guard is who the President or the Sec. of Defense deploys when it comes to events in Washington DC.

I thought y’all said that Nancy Pelosi turned down the National Guard. Now it’s the Capitol Police. Which is it? What is your source that Capitol Police turned down the National Guard? Faux News? You are the biggest Chump knot twister on this site.
Jesus dude. Is it that hard to comprehend? I've spelled it out several times. It's also in black and white in the links I've provided.

The National Guard was made available to the Capitol Police by Trump. The Capitol Police report to Nanci Pelosi. The Capitol Police turned down the assistance of the National Guard several times in the days leading up to Jan 6. What the F are you getting so confused here?
 
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bear_down_chicago_89

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Jesus dude. Is it that hard to comprehend? I've spelled it out several times. It's also in black and white in the links I've provided.

The National Guard was made available to the Capitol Police by Trump. The Capitol Police report to Nanci Pelosi. The Capitol Police turned down the assistance of the National Guard several times in the days leading up to Jan 6. What the F are you getting so confused here?
The Capitol Police report to a board that includes the Sgt at Arms for both the Senate (appointed by Mitch at the time) and House (appointed by Pelosi). Both of them quit in the aftermath of 1/6.

 
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indy35

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People lie under oath all the time right. People believe who they choose to believe. I have no idea anymore on who is telling the truth and who is lying.
You've stumbled right into Steve Bannon's whole strategy.

Bannon seems to view the Democrats less as the opposition party than figures of fun. “The Democrats don’t matter,” he had said to me over our lunch. “The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.”

Flood the zone with shit so that the people more likely to support them end up not believing in institutions anymore. If they can't know what's true, they're easier to control.

 
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