Minor gripe: Only 2 cupcake games remaining...

[FirstDownB]

... and Ewing and Taylor still not entering games until under 4 minutes to play and up by 30 points.

What happens if we need these guys against Michigan or Minnesota with Vince or Haarms in foul trouble? What about next year when one or both of them may be needed to carry a big load?

Am I overestimating the importance of real game experience?

I understand this is probably the last thing on Painter's mind when he is coaching and trying to win a game, but at what point is it safe to rest the main rotation guys and invest in some development of the bench mob? Up by 30 at the under 8:00 timeout?

 

[SIBoiler2]

I'll defer to Painter. Neither of them have shown exceptional or unique abilities when on the floor. I'm guessing the same is true in practice. As far as next year goes I think he is showing the future by minutes to Haarms, Eastern, and Edwards. JT may earn important minutes next year but with a redshirt Wheeler and the other incoming talent it's up to Ewing and JT to step up and prove they deserve minutes. Minutes are not earned in games if you aren't a great practice player.

 

[boilerzz]

The offset in game experience for them is fine tuning the rotation and getting the 8 guys who will play 95% of our Big Ten minutes as comfortable as possible playing with each other.

 

[BoiledSteel]

Who's minutes are they going to take? Only way to get them in the game is to take minutes away from someone that is clearly playing better than them.

 

[Do Dah Day]

I'll defer to Painter. Neither of them have shown exceptional or unique abilities when on the floor. I'm guessing the same is true in practice. As far as next year goes I think he is showing the future by minutes to Haarms, Eastern, and Edwards. JT may earn important minutes next year but with a redshirt Wheeler and the other incoming talent it's up to Ewing and JT to step up and prove they deserve minutes. Minutes are not earned in games if you aren't a great practice player.

The offset in game experience for them is fine tuning the rotation and getting the 8 guys who will play 95% of our Big Ten minutes as comfortable as possible playing with each other.

Agree with both the above. The players you refer to are playing against our best players in practice. Not game adrenaline, nor playing with the starters, but if they were showing a lot in practice, I assure you they would be getting on the floor more. If they show more in practice, they will then get more floor time.

As far as next year, well, there is a year until then... a LOT of practices. A lot of playing with next year's players outside of practice. Next year will take care of itself. Sacrificing time for the 8 who will play most of the time together in order to prepare for that time or two when we are in more foul trouble than normal is not a good investment. Plus, there are alternative solutions to foul-trouble that might be better than playing the below first-8 players. I don't know, but I don't get paid to know.

 

[FirstDownB]

The offset in game experience for them is fine tuning the rotation and getting the 8 guys who will play 95% of our Big Ten minutes as comfortable as possible playing with each other.

Of course that is the trade off.
Perhaps I am too confident in our "core rotation" at this point, with 4 seniors and the WUG experience and all, I don't see what some extra time against IUPUI up by 30 points in the 2nd half accomplishes. I find it more likely that this team gets derailed by inability to overcome an extreme circumstance, such as an injury or foul trouble in a critical game. And then there's next year, which yes seems like awhile from now, but will be here before you know it and we go from 4 senior starters to 4 guys with meaningful experience on the entire roster.

 

[FirstDownB]

Agree with both the above. The players you refer to are playing against our best players in practice. Not game adrenaline, nor playing with the starters, but if they were showing a lot in practice, I assure you they would be getting on the floor more. If they show more in practice, they will then get more floor time.

As far as next year, well, there is a year until then... a LOT of practices. A lot of playing with next year's players outside of practice. Next year will take care of itself. Sacrificing time for the 8 who will play most of the time together in order to prepare for that time or two when we are in more foul trouble than normal is not a good investment. Plus, there are alternative solutions to foul-trouble that might be better than playing the below first-8 players. I don't know, but I don't get paid to know.

 

[Beeazlebub]

Of course that is the trade off.
Perhaps I am too confident in our "core rotation" at this point, with 4 seniors and the WUG experience and all, I don't see what some extra time against IUPUI up by 30 points in the 2nd half accomplishes. I find it more likely that this team gets derailed by inability to overcome an extreme circumstance, such as an injury or foul trouble in a critical game. And then there's next year, which yes seems like awhile from now, but will be here before you know it and we go from 4 senior starters to returning 3 guys with meaningful experience on the entire roster.

I think you overestimate real-game experience.

It would benefit Ewing if he didn't make silly plays on the defensive end during garbage time. Last night, for example, he gambled for a steal as opposed to staying in position. Understanding defensive fundamentals would go much farther in improving his chances at playing time than a windmill-dunk.

 

[PU52Chevy]

I noticed last night PJ got a bunch of rest which helped Nojel get some minutes.

I also didn't like the effort from Mathias, I am sure it will be pointed out to him today in practice and could be why Cline got more minutes.
*Note: I like him overall but last night he wasn't focused at the start of the game or start of second half.

I would love for Painter to take a flyer and give Ewing lots of minutes the next couple games until Big Ten starts.......

Taylor I am not worried about and when needed he will bring energy and do his best always.

Boiler Up!

 

[boilerzz]

Of course that is the trade off.
Perhaps I am too confident in our "core rotation" at this point, with 4 seniors and the WUG experience and all, I don't see what some extra time against IUPUI up by 30 points in the 2nd half accomplishes. I find it more likely that this team gets derailed by inability to overcome an extreme circumstance, such as an injury or foul trouble in a critical game. And then there's next year, which yes seems like awhile from now, but will be here before you know it and we go from 4 senior starters to 4 guys with meaningful experience on the entire roster.

I was surprised to look at the box score and find that Dakota, Vince and Carsen all played 28 minutes. PJ's 23 and Isaac's 22 were less surprising. I'm guessing they weren't expected to play that much but unfortunately the game was "in doubt" until early in the second half.

The 2nd half minutes distribution:

• Eastern 13
• Mathias 12
• V Edwards 11
• C Edwards 11
• Cline 10
• Haarms 9
• Eifert 9
• Thompson 8
• Haas 7
• Taylor 4
• Ewing 3
• Luce 3

Candidly, I think Eifert and Haarms were out there in front of Taylor and Ewing because the coaches felt it was more important that we keep IUPUI from scoring than for Purdue to continue scoring. As mentioned, Ewing is well behind defensively and Taylor just doesn't look totally right to me. With college basketball today, teams can hit three 3's in a row and quickly cut a 20 point deficit to 11.

 

[Wolegib]

here's a different thought that probably also should be considered.

and no, I'm not going the injury route that painter is babying Taylor because of his many injuries.

Going into this season, there was a lot of discussion on this board about Haas being able to actually be able to play 30 minutes without either tiring out or fouling out. Many of us had said going down the stretch, the games are going to be close, and we'll need Haas to play more minutes in those close games. So maybe Painter is trying to look for games where he can extend Haas' playing time. Admittedly, last night's game goes against that theory as has only played 22 mins. it's still a good theory.

Or I could refer to several preseason threads that talked about minutes. and nearly everyone agreed that V Edwards and Mathias would each receive 30 minutes. and that Haas, PJ and C Edwards would each receive 25-30 minutes. and if V Edwards played the majority of his time at PF, there would basically be a maximum of 20-25 mins left for our big men to split between Haarms, Ewing, Taylor and Grady. it appears Haarms is receiving 10-15 of that 25 minutes leaving 10 minutes left to split among Taylor, Ewing and Grady. The reality is Taylor and Ewing are receiving about the amount of minutes predicted for them in the preseason. They could be playing more, but they needed to earn more minutes. Of our back-up big men, two men have actually stepped up their game and actually earned additional playing time - Haarms and Grady. Haarms is getting more minutes, and those minutes are not cutting into Haas or Edwards' minutes. they are at the expense of Ewing and Taylor. Haarms is emerging and becoming deserving. and the reality is, if more minutes were actually given out to our reserves, I'd want those minutes to be given to Haarms, Eastern and Cline over Ewing and Taylor.

a line-up of C Edwards, Mathias, PJ, Eastern and Haarms would be interesting when V Edwards and Haas need a rest. that would essentially be going small ball with a rim protector. I could see a line-up next year of Edwards, Eastern , Cline, Hunter and Haarms posing some interesting match-ups. I doubt painter would ever go to a 4 guard and a center line-up. But the reality is he could and it would be a fun line-up to watch.

if Taylor and Ewing want to play more they will have to beat out Haarms for those minutes. and next year, they will have to beat out Haarms, Wheeler, Dow and Tre. I can see Painter again running a 3 guard offense with two bigs. and who knows ? Tre and Dow could be next year's Haarms and actually earn 20 mins a game. As a freshman, Swanigan earned his playing minutes. Painter is going to give minutes to those who earn them.

going into this season, I thought Eastern would receive more minutes. but Cline improved his game and is also earning playing time.

I believe it speaks volumes in blow-out games how few minutes some players are receiving. Simply stated, Painter doesn't give minutes; players earn them.

 

[FirstDownB]

I may be overestimating game experience and playing in front of 14,000 people. But then I look at Tommy "can't miss a free throw in practice" Luce and see him shooting 33% from the line in games. Frankly, I don't know how these guys play in front of all those people like they do, I'd be pissing down my leg, but I've always figured part of it comes down to experience.

 

[Do Dah Day]

I was surprised to look at the box score and find that Dakota, Vince and Carsen all played 28 minutes. PJ's 23 and Isaac's 22 were less surprising. I'm guessing they weren't expected to play that much but unfortunately the game was "in doubt" until early in the second half.

The 2nd half minutes distribution:

• Eastern 13
• Mathias 12
• V Edwards 11
• C Edwards 11
• Cline 10
• Haarms 9
• Eifert 9
• Thompson 8
• Haas 7
• Taylor 4
• Ewing 3
• Luce 3

Candidly, I think Eifert and Haarms were out there in front of Taylor and Ewing because the coaches felt it was more important that we keep IUPUI from scoring than for Purdue to continue scoring. As mentioned, Ewing is well behind defensively and Taylor just doesn't look totally right to me. With college basketball today, teams can hit three 3's in a row and quickly cut a 20 point deficit to 11.

So there were 9 guys ahead of Taylor/Ewing. Eifert can (and will) plug-in when needed without hurting us. A few seconds of analysis of the above paints a pretty clear picture of the rest of the year and of next year.

As I said in another thread, they guy that it appears will need to step-up next year is Tre. We can pretty well count on Eastern, Boogie, Cline, and Haarms (sure, maybe not???)) .... and then who? It strikes me that it is open for competition YAY for competition.

 

[*4purdue*]

Who's minutes are they going to take? Only way to get them in the game is to take minutes away from someone that is clearly playing better than them.

His minutes have gone down, but I think they should both be playing over Eifert... which they aren't.

 

[delish1]

... and Ewing and Taylor still not entering games until under 4 minutes to play and up by 30 points.

What happens if we need these guys against Michigan or Minnesota with Vince or Haarms in foul trouble? What about next year when one or both of them may be needed to carry a big load?

Am I overestimating the importance of real game experience?

I understand this is probably the last thing on Painter's mind when he is coaching and trying to win a game, but at what point is it safe to rest the main rotation guys and invest in some development of the bench mob? Up by 30 at the under 8:00 timeout?

I wonder how mad Painter gets at Ewing for going for a steal on every defensive possession he's in the game. Maybe at that point, he tells the bench to go ahead and do that, but it could show why he doesn't play. Ewing does appear to have some offensive skills and be close with his teammates, but maybe next year is the plan for him.
It would be nice if he could give 5 minutes a game though, basically Eifert's minutes only because the thought of Eifert playing in the MSU game or a tournament game makes me a little nervous.

 

[FirstDownB]

So there were 9 guys ahead of Taylor/Ewing. Eifert can (and will) plug-in when needed without hurting us. A few seconds of analysis of the above paints a pretty clear picture of the rest of the year and of next year.

As I said in another thread, they guy that it appears will need to step-up next year is Tre. We can pretty well count on Eastern, Boogie, Cline, and Haarms (sure, maybe not???)) .... and then who? It strikes me that it is open for competition YAY for competition.

This year: pray for injury free season
Next year: hope Wheeler's shirt is to save a year of eligibility and not the alternative (which is that he is behind Eifert,JT, and Ewing). And get Tre on the Josh B. S&C program yesterday!

 

[FirstDownB]

I wonder how mad Painter gets at Ewing for going for a steal on every defensive possession he's in the game. Maybe at that point, he tells the bench to go ahead and do that, but it could show why he doesn't play. Ewing does appear to have some offensive skills and be close with his teammates, but maybe next year is the plan for him.
It would be nice if he could give 5 minutes a game though, basically Eifert's minutes only because the thought of Eifert playing in the MSU game or a tournament game makes me a little nervous.

If Taylor or Ewing aren't playing more than 3-4 minutes at home against Valpo or IUPUI, they aren't playing against MSU at the Breslin. That would be a disaster.

 

[delish1]

If Taylor or Ewing aren't playing more than 3-4 minutes at home against Valpo or IUPUI, they aren't playing against MSU at the Breslin. That would be a disaster.

In their current state, I completely agree. I'm hoping for some improvement. I'm actually hoping it doesn't come to that at all, but we need something to talk about right now.

 

[Do Dah Day]

This year: pray for injury free season
Next year: hope Wheeler's shirt is to save a year of eligibility and not the alternative (which is that he is behind Eifert,JT, and Ewing). And get Tre on the Josh B. S&C program yesterday!

Every team prays for an injury-free season. Rarely is there a non-starter as good as the starter - it's the nature of the beast.

Tre will be on the program the day he gets on campus, if not before.

I can assure you that wheeler will bring tidings of great joy over the next four years.

 

[FirstDownB]

Every team prays for an injury-free season. Rarely is there a non-starter as good as the starter - it's the nature of the beast.

Hopefully I've established more board cred than this. What I mean is if this team lacks depth as much as is discussed above (not trusting your #9/10/11 guys in a blowout), then an injury to one of the core rotation guys would be a devastating blow. Contrast with 2 years ago, we went 10 deep, lost Stephens and kept on trucking with Mathias and Cline getting more minutes.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Hopefully I've established more board cred than this. What I mean is this team lacks depth as much as is discussed above (not trusting your #9/10/11 guys in a blowout), then an injury to one of the core rotation guys would be a devastating blow. Contrast with 2 years ago, we went 10 deep, lost Stephens and kept on trucking.

My intent was not to discredit you. But as you stated, PU/CMP did develop depth at times in the past. Which indicates to me that development of the depth (#9/10/11) this year will not bring them to where it brought past players. It's not like it's something a coach doesn't want to do or hasn't done in the past.

 

[boilerHup]

At what point is it safe to rest the main rotation guys and invest in some development of the bench mob? Up by 30 at the under 8:00 timeout?

One of the unspoken rules of coaching is that the winning coach doesn't clear his bench until the losing coach does. You might play your reserves more minutes, but you don't put your scrubs in until the other guy does. Not only because you don't want to look like you're showing the other team up, but also because if your scrubs let a 20 point lead get cut in half in 2 minutes, you have to put your starters back in.

 

[FirstDownB]

One of the unspoken rules of coaching is that the winning coach doesn't clear his bench until the losing coach does. You might play your reserves more minutes, but you don't put your scrubs in until the other guy does. Not only because you don't want to look like you're showing the other team up, but also because if your scrubs let a 20 point lead get cut in half in 2 minutes, you have to put your starters back in.

So are we concluding, at least for this season, that Taylor and Ewing are in the bench scrub camp as opposed to the reserve camp? Indeed, their usage is basically equal to Tommy Luce. I guess that is where we're at and makes every decision clear... Just didn't want to hear it.

 

[BoilerAndy]

... and Ewing and Taylor still not entering games until under 4 minutes to play and up by 30 points.

What happens if we need these guys against Michigan or Minnesota with Vince or Haarms in foul trouble? What about next year when one or both of them may be needed to carry a big load?

Am I overestimating the importance of real game experience?

I understand this is probably the last thing on Painter's mind when he is coaching and trying to win a game, but at what point is it safe to rest the main rotation guys and invest in some development of the bench mob? Up by 30 at the under 8:00 timeout?

I would especially like to see Taylor get more PT, especially if Painter intends to have two true bigs on the floor. Not only would it provide insurance for foul troubles, but Taylor is very athletic and was a rebounding machine in the WUG -- before he tweaked his ankle. This team could use some of that.

 

[burbo]

I noticed last night PJ got a bunch of rest which helped Nojel get some minutes.

I also didn't like the effort from Mathias, I am sure it will be pointed out to him today in practice and could be why Cline got more minutes.
*Note: I like him overall but last night he wasn't focused at the start of the game or start of second half.

I would love for Painter to take a flyer and give Ewing lots of minutes the next couple games until Big Ten starts.......

Taylor I am not worried about and when needed he will bring energy and do his best always.

Boiler Up!

Mathias kind of stunk it up last night, and he’d probably be the first to tell you that. 3 points and 3 TO’s on some really bad passing. I thought he had more TO’s than that until I saw the box score. We’ll hope he got his 1 bad game out of his system.

 

[Wolegib]

So are we concluding, at least for this season, that Taylor and Ewing are in the bench scrub camp as opposed to reserve camp? Their usage is basically equal to Tommy Luce. I guess that is where we're at and makes every decision clear... Just didn't want to hear it.

Yup! I'm not sure that was by design! But that is the reality! The minutes were there for the taking and Haarms and Hrady took them! I'm not sure if I'm glad or sad that Grady elevated his game to take Taylor and Ewing's minutes!