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HUD628

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Apr 11, 2007
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This team needs the opposition to miss shots. But they allow too many good ones. They’ve got to get so so so much better defensively, which everyone knew would be a thing. But it just looks so bad when we have to take the ball out after a made basket or free throw. It’s just Braden being hounded and handing it off 40 feet from the basket, then back to him, and then nothing.

Frustrating to watch us get dog walked twice already. But we have a good coach and good players, so let’s find some answers.
 
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HUD628 said:
This team needs the opposition to miss shots. But they allow too many good ones. They’ve got to get so so so much better defensively, which everyone knew would be a thing. But it just looks so bad when we have to take the ball out after a made basket or free throw. It’s just Braden being hounded and handing it off 40 feet from the basket, then back to him, and then nothing.

Frustrating to watch us get dog walked twice already. But we have a good coach and good players, so let’s find some answers.
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Is Braden actually just a good but not great player? So far he’s laid two eggs when really good defensive teams have focused on taking him out of his game. Maybe that’s all that he has.
 
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pubill said:
Great players have some bad games over a year’s time
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Smith is a great player but he's got holes to his game.

Too many reckless passes, doesn't shoot enough, and struggles with aggressive defenders. Having said that, none of the starters played well tonight so plenty of blame to go around
 
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pubill said:
Great players have some bad games over a year’s time
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I'm not declaring anything, just asking what I think is a fair question. There is no doubt that Braden is very good. He'll have plenty of opportunities to show whether he's actually great (or not), starting on Sunday.
 
Zach covered up so much. He provided so many open looks for teammates, and covered up for Purdue not being able to stop the ball. Not to mention, when shots weren’t falling and turnovers happened he provided extra offensive boards and of course a dependable easy bucket or three. They missed him a lot tonight, especially Braden . Having said that, I recall a game like this last year vs Nebraska.
 
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northside100 said:
I'm not declaring anything, just asking what I think is a fair question. There is no doubt that Braden is very good. He'll have plenty of opportunities to show whether he's actually great (or not), starting on Sunday.
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The main reason is there is no Zach in the middle. Last year he had the best big man in college basketball as his batman and now there is no batman to lean on and there's only Alfred.
 
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Purdue58 said:
The main reason is there is no Zach in the middle. Last year he had the best big man in college basketball as his batman and now there is no batman to lean on and there's only Alfred.
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Bit of a shot at TKR for no reason.

There was no one in college basketball like Edey. Possibly since back in the Wilt and Jabar days as far as someone who simply dominated the interior to that extent.

TKR is averaging a pretty good points and rebounds set of numbers for the season.
 
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northside100 said:
Is Braden actually just a good but not great player? So far he’s laid two eggs when really good defensive teams have focused on taking him out of his game. Maybe that’s all that he has.
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Talk about laying an egg, probably the best point guard Purdue will ever have and you question his ability? Purdue lost, lets not jump off a cliff! Purdue got outplayed by a really good Penn St. team that is vastly underrated! Purdues top 3 players did not play well, TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers! Penn St. can compete at the top of the conference this year. They have the best rated (computer metrics) players in the conference!
 
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Dekezar said:
He has no help bringing the ball up when he gets double teamed no body steps up to make the other team pay it will be a long season if they don’t figure it out
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When Harris is in the game, he has helped at times - Colvin also did once or twice.....agree with the premise that he needs help and more options......they also probably need to pick their spots with pace......even though Penn State likes the fast tempo, might have been better for Purdue last night - although I don't think much different strategy mattered as Penn State was just the better team for the game.

Penn State goes to Rutgers next on Tuesday - that will be interesting with a pair of Aces.
 
northside100 said:
Is Braden actually just a good but not great player? So far he’s laid two eggs when really good defensive teams have focused on taking him out of his game. Maybe that’s all that he has.
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I've been stunned by how many times he's been matched this season already. Elite playmaking skills but 1/2 step slow of being able to dictate the game with his ball handling. Crazy how many good, Fast, defensive ace pg's there are now. At least defensively.
He can be better with experience and help from his teammates, but POY doesn't seem in the cards.
 
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Blimpy said:
Talk about laying an egg, probably the best point guard Purdue will ever have and you question his ability? Purdue lost, lets not jump off a cliff! Purdue got outplayed by a really good Penn St. team that is vastly underrated! Purdues top 3 players did not play well, TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers! Penn St. can compete at the top of the conference this year. They have the best rated (computer metrics) players in the conference!
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There is quite a difference between him saying "great or just good" to your calling him out as "questioning his ability".
Top rated (computer metrics) indeed!! (it's settled then)
 
Schmedly_Whiplash said:
I've been stunned by how many times he's been matched this season already. Elite playmaking skills but 1/2 step slow of being able to dictate the game with his ball handling. Crazy how many good, Fast pg's there are now. He can be better with experience and help from his teammates, but POY doesn't seem in the cards.
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Completely agree. He’s garnering attention in a way that team just couldn’t do when Zach was on the court and he needs to be able to adjust. He, Matt and PJ will continue to watch film, he’ll get more experience and I fully expect him and this team to get better, but I agree that AA and BTPOU may not be in the cards, which is fine so long as he and the team continuously improve.
 
Schmedly_Whiplash said:
I've been stunned by how many times he's been matched this season already. Elite playmaking skills but 1/2 step slow of being able to dictate the game with his ball handling. Crazy how many good, Fast, defensive ace pg's there are now. He can be better with experience and help from his teammates, but POY doesn't seem in the cards.
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Baldwin is good, but he is a 5th year player! Braden is 70-13 in his career, so history says he's really good. Last night he had no help, Colvin and Heide didn't show and TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers!
 
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Blimpy said:
Talk about laying an egg, probably the best point guard Purdue will ever have and you question his ability? Purdue lost, lets not jump off a cliff! Purdue got outplayed by a really good Penn St. team that is vastly underrated! Purdues top 3 players did not play well, TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers! Penn St. can compete at the top of the conference this year. They have the best rated (computer metrics) players in the conference!
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I said all this elsewhere but Braden is not consistently playing at an AA / BTPOY level at this point. He has not been very good in the two games against high level pressure defenses. Hopefully he figures that out but I don’t think it’s unfair to ask the question as to whether maybe that’s just his kryptonite.

Agree that Fletch was not very good last night. Trey got absolutely jobbed and is going to have to figure out how to be stronger with the ball when he’s getting fouled.

I think PSU is an NCAAT team but I don’t think they’re much more than that. I could be wrong.
 
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Blimpy said:
Baldwin is good, but he is a 5th year player! Braden is 70-13 in his career, so history says he's really good. Last night he had no help, Colvin and Heide didn't show and TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers!
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Braden is 70-13 playing with one of the greatest players in NCAA history. He was not good last night. That doesn’t make him a bad player but he needs to go out and prove it with this team. I’m not saying he can’t or won’t do that.
 
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Ok - here is are my issues challenges that i saw from last night.

1. We have secondary ball handlers in Harris and Cox but their purpose seems to be take ball, dribble and give back to Braden. That doesn't help with the pressure they applied.

2. Initiating the offense 45 feet from the basket. Hats off to PSU for making us. We have to have some counter action against this because teams will try and replicate what they did.

3. Offense - I don't get this idea of running a screen, giving the ball to someone not named TKR, Smith runs around and takes the ball back in the exact same place but now has 2 defenders on him

Lot to learn from this loss and if we don't, that game at Auburn is going to be really ugly
 
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northside100 said:
Braden is 70-13 playing with one of the greatest players in NCAA history. He was not good last night. That doesn’t make him a bad player but he needs to go out and prove it with this team. I’m not saying he can’t or won’t do that.
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I honestly still think he is learning to play without Zach. Think about it, he had Zach for the first two years of his Purdue career which made things super easy. That is quite the learning curve to overcome.

This is a whole different type of team that is really in sort of a transition so I think it will just take time. My expectations going in to this season were actually pretty low knowing there was a LOT of new things to learn while next year could be another special year.
 
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Blimpy said:
Baldwin is good, but he is a 5th year player! Braden is 70-13 in his career, so history says he's really good. Last night he had no help, Colvin and Heide didn't show and TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers!
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Setting up 2 time NPOY had a "bit" to do with that.
he's very very good, nobody is saying he's not.
But he's also not Supeman.
 
boilerzz said:
Imagine thinking 11 points and 9 assists (vs 2 TO's) is laying an egg. That's the standard Braden Smith has set.
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100%. That’s the bar of greatness and fair or not, Braden will be measured by winning unless he has a great game and they still fall short. I think he’ll get better as the year goes on and he gets used to playing with this crew but imo he’s not there yet.
 
BBG said:
I honestly still think he is learning to play without Zach. Think about it, he had Zach for the first two years of his Purdue career which made things super easy. That is quite the learning curve to overcome.

This is a whole different type of team that is really in sort of a transition so I think it will just take time. My expectations going in to this season were actually pretty low knowing there was a LOT of new things to learn while next year could be another special year.
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Could not agree more. Expectations on Braden were unrealistically high for the start of the year.
 
When Braden is getting hounded, every time bringing the ball up, we really need to provide some plays and support for him. If for the only reason to conserve his energy. Sort of like breaking the press, we really need to work on this aspect of our team strategy. We have gotten a little better over the years at it but still not where I would like for us to be. Also, we need to find more ways to get Heide and Colvin more involved. 0 points and 6 points from 40% of your starters is not going to get us very far. I missed some of the game after we got 20 points behind, but I didn't see a lot of offensive plays that I was impressed with. I have seen us do better many times. Purdue Fort Wayne scored more points against Penn State than we did. We just seemed unready to play today and made Penn State look like a top 10 team which I am pretty certain they are not. Maybe Penn State is a tournament team we will see but this game was not a good look for us.
 
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What I have found odd (and somewhat frustrating) over the last few years is that it usually seems like if one guy has a bad night, they all do. It’s like they all go cold shooting and get the turnover bug at the same time and there’s rarely a guy who goes off or has a career night when his teammates are struggling. When they do go off, it’s usually in the course of a strong game or rout of another team. They really do win and lose as a team. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it speaks to mental toughness and is very frustrating to watch sometimes (like last night).
 
Blimpy said:
Talk about laying an egg, probably the best point guard Purdue will ever have and you question his ability? Purdue lost, lets not jump off a cliff! Purdue got outplayed by a really good Penn St. team that is vastly underrated! Purdues top 3 players did not play well, TKR and Loyer had 12 turnovers! Penn St. can compete at the top of the conference this year. They have the best rated (computer metrics) players in the conference!
Click to expand...
Purdue hasn't ever been able to recruit point guards though. At least not through the Keady and Painter years. Even Everett Stephens was pretty sloppy with the ball, and he might be the only one that got to the NBA. The excuse was always that you don't need a PG to run the motion offense.
 
boilerzz said:
Imagine thinking 11 points and 9 assists (vs 2 TO's) is laying an egg. That's the standard Braden Smith has set.
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Look, I'm not dumping on Smith, but let's be honest, when the game was still in the balance (1st half) he played poorly and didn't score a point. Once the game was out of hand he scored most of his points. We went for about a 5 minute stretch in 1st half without scoring. That is where your AA point guard gets you some buckets. Game was lost in that 1st half.
 
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We need a 5 "Berg" to set screens to free up Braden. Yes, Will isn't perfect, but our offense flows with him. He was our leading rebounder while playing ten minutes. Also, he doesn't get pushed around like Furst, Heide, and Burgess. Beating Purdue will be easy if Braden's head isn't up. Hard to run small ball with one ballhandler which is what we have with this lineup. For me its CJ or Berg either put another ballhandler on the court or maximize the only one you have. We really need a change for Braden's sake.
 
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oldboiler52 said:
We need a 5 "Berg" to set screens to free up Braden. Yes, Will isn't perfect, but our offense flows with him. He was our leading rebounder while playing ten minutes. Also, he doesn't get pushed around like Furst, Heide, and Burgess. Beating Purdue will be easy if Braden's head isn't up. Hard to run small ball with one ballhandler which is what we have with this lineup. For me its CJ or Berg either put another ballhandler on the court or maximize the only one you have. We really need a change for Braden's sake.
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Which I feel like was the plan before DJ got hurt. If he was available I think last night would have been different. I know..a bunch of what ifs, but still something to consider.
 
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ImRonBurgandy? said:
Didn't watch the game, but per the box score Colvin and Heide took a combined 5 shots. That's an issue.
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It was an odd game all the way around. After several possessions resulting in a turnover (first half), finally a good one to get Colvin a really good look in the right corner that he missed. Heide had a drive early in the second half where he missed a lay-in, and then Penn State got a fast break triple. They never were in the flow of the offense......partly from the turnovers, partly from Penn State defense, and I think then the Boilers just got away from structure then.

They did have 9 steals and forced 16 turnovers - not too many times have they lost with that......of course when you turn it over 24 times yourselves - all bets are off.

Reminded me a little of @ Nebraska last year, as far as just being discombobulated most of the night.......maybe it's just one of those nights, maybe it's worse. Don't know how good Penn State really is, but they don't seem like bottom of the league (picked 17th).
 
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oldboiler52 said:
We need a 5 "Berg" to set screens to free up Braden. Yes, Will isn't perfect, but our offense flows with him. He was our leading rebounder while playing ten minutes. Also, he doesn't get pushed around like Furst, Heide, and Burgess. Beating Purdue will be easy if Braden's head isn't up. Hard to run small ball with one ballhandler which is what we have with this lineup. For me its CJ or Berg either put another ballhandler on the court or maximize the only one you have. We really need a change for Braden's sake.
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I don't know shit relative to MP and staff, but was surprised that Will didn't play given that Penn State plays a traditional big. Granted, their guy only played 20 minutes, in part due to foul trouble, but it seems that Will is firmly outside of the rotation at this point.
 
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We lose too many defensive assignments. The players help out each other and then someone forgets or loses who they were originally guarding. The opposition gets an easy basket, whether it is in the post or on the perimeter.

Sure, Penn State shot well from 3. so did Ole Miss, etc. We are leaving players completely wide open. It is type of shots that they should only have in practice drills, and we are allowing them in a game. Teams are going to continue to shoot lights out against us, until we learn how to be quicker and tighter in our defense on the perimeter.
 
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After watching last nights game…I feel Kaufman-Renn at the 5 will not work most of the time in the Big Ten. Currently…he plays against a taller player…most nights. I would add more height to the lineup…and play Burgess at the 5 ( and let him develop…) , Kaufman-Renn at the 4 ( which was the plan to start the season b4 Danielson was hurt), Colvin at the 3, Loyer at the 2 and Smith at the 1. Then..Cox seems ready to play…and have him log significant minutes at the 1 and 2. Off the bench, Heidi, Harris and Furst in addition to Cox.
 
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seminolesboilers said:
After watching last nights game…I feel Kaufman-Renn at the 5 will not work most of the time in the Big Ten. Currently…he plays against a taller player…most nights. I would add more height to the lineup…and play Burgess at the 5 ( and let him develop…) , Kaufman-Renn at the 4 ( which was the plan to start the season b4 Danielson was hurt), Colvin at the 3, Loyer at the 2 and Smith at the 1. Then..Cox seems ready to play…and have him log significant minutes at the 1 and 2. Off the bench, Heidi, Harris and Furst in addition to Cox.
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What did you see last night that causes you to believe that Trey at the five won’t work?
 
BoilerMaker P said:
What I have found odd (and somewhat frustrating) over the last few years is that it usually seems like if one guy has a bad night, they all do. It’s like they all go cold shooting and get the turnover bug at the same time and there’s rarely a guy who goes off or has a career night when his teammates are struggling. When they do go off, it’s usually in the course of a strong game or rout of another team. They really do win and lose as a team. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it speaks to mental toughness and is very frustrating to watch sometimes (like last night).
Click to expand...
How many times have we lost the last few years?
 
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