Illinois

[lbodel]

The Illini have struggled in Big Ten play, but also opened with no slouches. Their first 3 Big Ten games were Michigan, @ Ohio State and @ Michigan State. Against MSU, Illinois played without their leading scorer who missed the game to be at his son's birth. So an 0-3 start can't be read into too much.

Illinois has 2 players likely out, including their true center Thorne. Black also will likely miss the game (I believe he went off on us last year).

Illinois has good size at their remaining positions though, similar to us. A couple tall guards and a 6'10" forward and a back-up center with size.

On offense, Illinois isn't great, they aren't bad. They are middle of the pack in the Big Ten. Nunn, their leading scorer, and a freshman are both 40%+ 3 point shooters.

That being said, they have 2 areas they are just not good in.

1. Defense. Illinois is last in the Big Ten in scoring defense, last in field goal percentage defense (give up 46.5% shooting) and last in 3 point FG defense (teams shoot 39% against them).

2. Rebounding. They are dead last in rebounding margin and statistically bad with both offensive and defensive rebounding.

So at this point you may say well these weaknesses will really be good for Purdue.

However, Illinois is also #1 in the Big Ten in turnover margin, our achilles heel. They average a hair under 10 turnovers per game and their opponents average over 13.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Illinois plan for us similar to Butler - they can't match up with us inside, so they will try to make our big guys uncomfortable (swarming) and out of position. This obviously led to a lot of turnovers and bad shots. This is really a game you have to look for a senior in AJ to ride. Given that it's on the road, it may not be the worst thing for him to come off the bench to help avoid early foul trouble. The last thing we need is AJ riding the bench with 2 early fouls - similar to Butler (although you can point out he didn't start that game - but one of his fouls was just dumb on his part).

We basically need to play our bread and butter for this game. These types of games can be tough though - Illinois will be gunning for a win, they just played their last game without their best player (who will be back), and it's obviously on the road. If we don't show up and play with intensity - particularly defensively - it will completely wash out one of our biggest advantages (the best defense vs. the worst). We also need to hit the boards hard. If we play good defense and rebound strong, we should be in a good spot.

This is a game where you don't want to hurt yourself. That's been one of Purdue's issues this year. This is a great opportunity to play our game and dictate a game - we were slow in doing that the other night against Michigan.

 

[Dryfly88]

I have only seen IL play once this year. Do they press much or at all? I will agree that keeping our turnovers down is a big key.

 

[toddbrewster]

Do you think this may be a good game to try out something new like a full court press?

Again I am suggesting trying it out for about 3 minutes per half like my twin tower experiment.

I am suggesting this, because Michigan is a racehorse team and we have the depth to run with them. A press may cause Illinois to go racehorse for a while and tire them out.

My suggestion is to try these schemes out and then have them in the tool bag against different teams we meet in the tournament where we can possibly use it to our advantage.

 

[boilerzz]

Illinois may have a good turnover margin but that's because they don't turn it over (5th nationally in TO%), not because they turn opponents over (134th). I don't think that aligns nearly as well with Purdue's deficiency as you indicate. Purdue doesn't put an emphasis on forcing TO's but instead focuses on playing solid D and rebounding.

That said, I'm always concerned about teams that I think are significantly more athletic than us and have size who can shoot from outside. We should win but our guys better be ready to play.

 

[lbodel]

Do you think this may be a good game to try out something new like a full court press?

Again I am suggesting trying it out for about 3 minutes per half like my twin tower experiment.

I am suggesting this, because Michigan is a racehorse team and we have the depth to run with them. A press may cause Illinois to go racehorse for a while and tire them out.

My suggestion is to try these schemes out and then have them in the tool bag against different teams we meet in the tournament where we can possibly use it to our advantage.

Don't think this is a game to try new things. When you have clear advantages like our defense vs their defense and rebounding, no risk trying new things.

 

[lbodel]

Illinois may have a good turnover margin but that's because they don't turn it over (5th nationally in TO%), not because they turn opponents over (134th). I don't think that aligns nearly as well with Purdue's deficiency as you indicate. Purdue doesn't put an emphasis on forcing TO's but instead focuses on playing solid D and rebounding.

That said, I'm always concerned about teams that I think are significantly more athletic than us and have size who can shoot from outside. We should win but our guys better be ready to play.

I didn't mean it in the sense of them turning us over. A lot of our turnover problem are unforced turnovers.

However, what we have seen is games with turnover differential, that difference canceling out our advantage with, say, rebounding.

It's great if we out rebound a team by 7. But if we turn the ball over 7 more times than the opponent, it basically cancels it out.

We have to make sure areas that we should have advantages are true advantages.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Do you think this may be a good game to try out something new like a full court press?

Again I am suggesting trying it out for about 3 minutes per half like my twin tower experiment.

I am suggesting this, because Michigan is a racehorse team and we have the depth to run with them. A press may cause Illinois to go racehorse for a while and tire them out.

My suggestion is to try these schemes out and then have them in the tool bag against different teams we meet in the tournament where we can possibly use it to our advantage.

1. We could not install a good press in less than a week of practice. Plus, it would require us to put a different 5 on the floor than normal.
2. As badly as we play against a press, we would struggle to develop a good press in practice because we would not be challenged.
3. With that said, practicing a press would certainly help us develop a better press break.
4. I have seen teams try to put a press on and have it fail and give-up ten points before you can blink.
5. I much prefer us getting better and better at keeping teams from scoring. If they don't score, you don't have an opp to put the press on ... nor a need to.

I admit, I have not idea how much we have or do practice against a press ... but history says not very much.

 

[pumsu]

Do you think this may be a good game to try out something new like a full court press?

Again I am suggesting trying it out for about 3 minutes per half like my twin tower experiment.

I am suggesting this, because Michigan is a racehorse team and we have the depth to run with them. A press may cause Illinois to go racehorse for a while and tire them out.

My suggestion is to try these schemes out and then have them in the tool bag against different teams we meet in the tournament where we can possibly use it to our advantage.

Painter does not press, unless down late. He is a bread and butter coach, no frills no trying stuff.

 

[lbodel]

I admit, I have not idea how much we have or do practice against a press ... but history says not very much.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much time teams in general do this unless they are playing against some notorious team for it.

And clearly the players adjusted how they played, but it's called a trap for a reason - they got trapped, sometimes knowing what their ultimate goal is, sometimes not.

But to act like Purdue's the only team in college basketball history to struggle against the press...is like the notion that Purdue's the only team that's blown a double digit lead.

 

[Do Dah Day]

And clearly the players adjusted how they played, but it's called a trap for a reason - they got trapped, sometimes knowing what their ultimate goal is, sometimes not.

But to act like Purdue's the only team in college basketball history to struggle against the press...is like the notion that Purdue's the only team that's blown a double digit lead.

I totally agree. Although I believe history does point to Purdue not handling a press well. Not the only team, but certainly one of it's historic weaknesses. If you don't play against teams who press well, then no big deal. I continue to state the the best way to handle a press is to not let the other team score, which then does not allow them to set-up their press. Which is what Purdue has done well the past couple of years with their base defense.

Also, consider that a press is a zone, which means we would need to drop back into a zone ... not something we do well.

 

[toddbrewster]

Since we do not handle the press well,.I would think Matt has them practice it. Our 2nd team presses and our first team works at breaking it. We have 5 guys who do not start that can run around at breakneck speed trapping and forcing Illinois to go at breakneck speed. In 3 minutes, we may get outplayed by a few points, but I don't think terrible, because we will have Haas back playing goalie. Is it worth losing a couple of points to tire out another team?

I agree that this may not be the team to try it against, if the score is close. However, if we are doing well this may be the best team to try it, as they have the ball handlers to break it and ratchet up our players pressing down the road. If it works somewhat, it may be good to use in situations where the opponents go with 7, a team without good ball handlers or a team in foul trouble.

Again, I am a big big fan of Matt and the job he is doing. I see Matt occasionally likes small ball and think this is a better alternative. However, I still would rather have the twin tower effect.

 

[lbodel]

I totally agree. Although I believe history does point to Purdue not handling a press well. Not the only team, but certainly one of it's historic weaknesses. If you don't play against teams who press well, then no big deal. I continue to state the the best way to handle a press is to not let the other team score, which then does not allow them to set-up their press. Which is what Purdue has done well the past couple of years with their base defense.

Also, consider that a press is a zone, which means we would need to drop back into a zone ... not something we do well.

It reminds me of the "we always struggle on in-bounds plays compared to other teams" type of comments. Has Purdue struggled against the press before? Sure.

But the Iowa press was so effective because of the timing of it more so than anything. Purdue had a big lead, it was into the second half (and past halftime where adjustments are made more effectively than a timeout) when their intensity ramped up, etc.

We played Louisville late in Keady's career vs. Pitino. Louisville was a team at the time with a renowned press (on the scale of a Syracuse zone). Purdue broke it down and had a great game against it (and won).

However, that was a game where that was Louisville's gameplay, we knew it, etc. So much of the Louisville prep probably focused on that. And other teams would prep the same way. And when you face it on other varying degrees (Northwestern's defense used to involve a lot of trap), you also may struggle with it for a lil while, but then you have halftime to really make some major adjustments and strategize with your team that a 30 second timeout doesn't allow. Iowa made a great adjustment with the press and their players played with some killer intensity. In addition, they also discovered how to shoot (which I think the game has overly been blamed on the press - Iowa had a great offensive 2nd half).

Obviously Purdue's overall band handling is NOT one of its top few strengths. But to say historically we aren't good against a press - well, first off, not many teams "excel" against it or teams wouldn't do it. Secondly, there aren't many teams that execute it that well (Michigan's was ok, but hardly what we saw vs. Iowa). Third, you can simulate it all you want in practice, but experience matters.

 

[Ross Mackey]

Just give me a win in Champaign against those effin featherheads...

As an Illinois native, I've seen more than my share of squirrelly finishes in this series.

 

[Do Dah Day]

It reminds me of the "we always struggle on in-bounds plays compared to other teams" type of comments. Has Purdue struggled against the press before? Sure.

But the Iowa press was so effective because of the timing of it more so than anything. Purdue had a big lead, it was into the second half (and past halftime where adjustments are made more effectively than a timeout) when their intensity ramped up, etc.

The press is always the most effective when it's a surprise. For this exact reason. Timing is everything. If you can get a team to in-bound the ball without realizing you're in a press - KaBAM. And, unless you have a press-break as an automatic play, then yes, a timeout won't usually solve it. Remember that Iowa was hitting a lot of shots, which mde it easy to set-up the press. If they don't shoot that high of a percentage, then not as many presses.

Interesting that your bring up the out-of-bounds weakness. I was thinking that the press break and in-bounds plays were the exact two aspects of the game that PU is historically weak at. I don't notice other teams struggle as much as PU tends to with in-bounding the ball. Just my limited observations.

I am in communication with several retired HS coaches. Two of which have six Indiana state tiles shared among them. I coached 23 years of AAU. A press is almost an automatic in AAU.
There were comments flying during the 2nd half of the Iowa game regarding how every coach preaches not to dribble across the center-line against a press. Whether that was our players decision or the coaches, we'll never know. I love Painter and won't complain, but that is a fundamental error that our players did more than a couple of times. A press should be an OPPORTUNITY to scare easily with a 4 on 3 situation resulting from getting out of the trap. We did not approach it that way. And our player continued to do exactly what the pressing team wanted him to do. We did not approach it as an easy opp to score.

In-bounds plays are the same. I expected my teams to score on every baseline in-bounds. If we didn't at least get a great shot, I was disappointed. We averaged over 12 points per game on baseline in-bounds playes. PU has historically not gotten a good shot out of in-bounds plays. Yes, it's coillege vs HS or AAU, but the reactions of PU players to these situations should be better than those of HS or AAU players.

 

[lbodel]

Illinois may have a good turnover margin but that's because they don't turn it over (5th nationally in TO%), not because they turn opponents over (134th). I don't think that aligns nearly as well with Purdue's deficiency as you indicate. Purdue doesn't put an emphasis on forcing TO's but instead focuses on playing solid D and rebounding.

That said, I'm always concerned about teams that I think are significantly more athletic than us and have size who can shoot from outside. We should win but our guys better be ready to play.

Illinois also has some good 3 point shooters. We can't afford to let those guys get going. It's going to be a similar game to Michigan - Michigan was able to hang with us because they were hitting 3s.

Purdue did a decent job on their better players, but allowed someone to step up and really have a breakout game.

Also, one of Illinois' big guys (who will be acting as center today) is a good 3 point shooter. Purdue has struggled getting out and defending perimeter shooting centers.

 

[purdue4sure]

Do you think this may be a good game to try out something new like a full court press?

Again I am suggesting trying it out for about 3 minutes per half like my twin tower experiment.

I am suggesting this, because Michigan is a racehorse team and we have the depth to run with them. A press may cause Illinois to go racehorse for a while and tire them out.

My suggestion is to try these schemes out and then have them in the tool bag against different teams we meet in the tournament where we can possibly use it to our advantage.

I would rather see the team focus on improving in areas where they sometimes struggle, such as perimeter defense (especially the bigs) and turnovers.

 

[boilerpt]

The Illini have struggled in Big Ten play, but also opened with no slouches. Their first 3 Big Ten games were Michigan, @ Ohio State and @ Michigan State. Against MSU, Illinois played without their leading scorer who missed the game to be at his son's birth. So an 0-3 start can't be read into too much.

Illinois has 2 players likely out, including their true center Thorne. Black also will likely miss the game (I believe he went off on us last year).

Illinois has good size at their remaining positions though, similar to us. A couple tall guards and a 6'10" forward and a back-up center with size.

On offense, Illinois isn't great, they aren't bad. They are middle of the pack in the Big Ten. Nunn, their leading scorer, and a freshman are both 40%+ 3 point shooters.

That being said, they have 2 areas they are just not good in.

1. Defense. Illinois is last in the Big Ten in scoring defense, last in field goal percentage defense (give up 46.5% shooting) and last in 3 point FG defense (teams shoot 39% against them).

2. Rebounding. They are dead last in rebounding margin and statistically bad with both offensive and defensive rebounding.

So at this point you may say well these weaknesses will really be good for Purdue.

However, Illinois is also #1 in the Big Ten in turnover margin, our achilles heel. They average a hair under 10 turnovers per game and their opponents average over 13.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Illinois plan for us similar to Butler - they can't match up with us inside, so they will try to make our big guys uncomfortable (swarming) and out of position. This obviously led to a lot of turnovers and bad shots. This is really a game you have to look for a senior in AJ to ride. Given that it's on the road, it may not be the worst thing for him to come off the bench to help avoid early foul trouble. The last thing we need is AJ riding the bench with 2 early fouls - similar to Butler (although you can point out he didn't start that game - but one of his fouls was just dumb on his part).

We basically need to play our bread and butter for this game. These types of games can be tough though - Illinois will be gunning for a win, they just played their last game without their best player (who will be back), and it's obviously on the road. If we don't show up and play with intensity - particularly defensively - it will completely wash out one of our biggest advantages (the best defense vs. the worst). We also need to hit the boards hard. If we play good defense and rebound strong, we should be in a good spot.

This is a game where you don't want to hurt yourself. That's been one of Purdue's issues this year. This is a great opportunity to play our game and dictate a game - we were slow in doing that the other night against Michigan.

Out of curiosity, what is our bread and butter?

 

[punaj]

Out of curiosity, what is our bread and butter?

I'd say Hammons on defense and Hammons on offense.

 

[tjreese]

The press is always the most effective when it's a surprise. For this exact reason. Timing is everything. If you can get a team to in-bound the ball without realizing you're in a press - KaBAM. And, unless you have a press-break as an automatic play, then yes, a timeout won't usually solve it. Remember that Iowa was hitting a lot of shots, which mde it easy to set-up the press. If they don't shoot that high of a percentage, then not as many presses.

Interesting that your bring up the out-of-bounds weakness. I was thinking that the press break and in-bounds plays were the exact two aspects of the game that PU is historically weak at. I don't notice other teams struggle as much as PU tends to with in-bounding the ball. Just my limited observations.

I am in communication with several retired HS coaches. Two of which have six Indiana state tiles shared among them. I coached 23 years of AAU. A press is almost an automatic in AAU.
There were comments flying during the 2nd half of the Iowa game regarding how every coach preaches not to dribble across the center-line against a press. Whether that was our players decision or the coaches, we'll never know. I love Painter and won't complain, but that is a fundamental error that our players did more than a couple of times. A press should be an OPPORTUNITY to scare easily with a 4 on 3 situation resulting from getting out of the trap. We did not approach it that way. And our player continued to do exactly what the pressing team wanted him to do. We did not approach it as an easy opp to score.

In-bounds plays are the same. I expected my teams to score on every baseline in-bounds. If we didn't at least get a great shot, I was disappointed. We averaged over 12 points per game on baseline in-bounds playes. PU has historically not gotten a good shot out of in-bounds plays. Yes, it's coillege vs HS or AAU, but the reactions of PU players to these situations should be better than those of HS or AAU players.

A couple of things. I too prefer a more surprised on and off press. Generally, you are describing pressure on the trigger man or at least 3/4 court coverage with a zone press. man presses are easy to beat if you have one good ball handler. As you also said elsewhere it is easier (not mandated though) that in a zone press, you may fall back into a zone of some type. My own preference is pressing "on makes" if a press is part of the game prior to absolutely needing it. I think the "press" against Purdue causes problems even when not turning the ball over as it eats clock. How many times doe s team need to defend the post when Purdue gets into execution with less than 20 seconds to go and will shoot at least with 7 seconds more often than not? Deny inside twice and you may be there? An inside oriented offense needs some time to feed the posts if covered tight

Lastly, I only have gut feel but I do think Purdue suffers sometimes getting the ball in when hard man pressure and maybe doesn't score as much as we would like with the ball is out of bounds under Purdue's basket. It used to be that the out of bounds under your basket was the most efficient possession in high school basketball...