How much of making clutch plays is coach versus players?

[northside100]

I honestly don't know the answer, but my sense is that guys like Valentine who want the ball in their hands at the end of the game are a result of who Denzel is, not because he plays for Izzo rather than Painter.

This year's Purdue team didn't have that guy and it ended up being their fatal flaw. Taking recruiting out of it (obviously Painter recruited these guys, so the buck stops with him), is the fact that there were no upperclassmen with that quality on this team something that Matt failed to develop, or is that just who these guys are?

Is it reasonable to hope that Vince, Biggie, Dakota, Cline or Carsen could develop into that type of player next year?

 

[Do Dah Day]

I honestly don't know the answer, but my sense is that guys like Valentine who want the ball in their hands at the end of the game are a result of who Denzel is, not because he plays for Izzo rather than Painter.

This year's Purdue team didn't have that guy and it ended up being their fatal flaw. Taking recruiting out of it (obviously Painter recruited these guys, so the buck stops with him), is the fact that there were no upperclassmen with that quality on this team something that Matt failed to develop, or is that just who these guys are?

Is it reasonable to hope that Vince, Biggie, Dakota, Cline or Carsen could develop into that type of player next year?

Yep ... 100% yep on your first two paragraphs. On your last paragraph, maybe Biggie, could be VInce, but am afraid not. You don't list Haas, who I think could demand the ball and "force" it into the basket, which is what go-to guys do. On the other hand, those kinds of guys need to be guards so they start out with the ball and need to be very athletic so they can do things with the ball.

 

[atmafola]

Painter came into this game with # 10 ranked team. He was 7 seeds above his opponent. Built up a 13 point gap late in the game, then choked it away.

He is paid to win games. When it mattered the most, he lost a game he had no business losing.

 

[lbodel]

I honestly don't know the answer, but my sense is that guys like Valentine who want the ball in their hands at the end of the game are a result of who Denzel is, not because he plays for Izzo rather than Painter.

This year's Purdue team didn't have that guy and it ended up being their fatal flaw. Taking recruiting out of it (obviously Painter recruited these guys, so the buck stops with him), is the fact that there were no upperclassmen with that quality on this team something that Matt failed to develop, or is that just who these guys are?

Is it reasonable to hope that Vince, Biggie, Dakota, Cline or Carsen could develop into that type of player next year?

As I said over and over, Davis and Hammons are wonderful players that have done great things. But NEITHER of them are clutch guys offensively who demand the ball when the game's on the line. This was evident yesterday.

A lot of the weight of the game fell on underclassmen. You don't want true freshmen being the ones fouled going to the line with the game on the line. Davis just didn't look like he wanted to be the guy at the end.

A lot of our younger guys aren't don't play scared and I love that about them. Look forward to their development.

 

[lbodel]

I honestly don't know the answer, but my sense is that guys like Valentine who want the ball in their hands at the end of the game are a result of who Denzel is, not because he plays for Izzo rather than Painter.

This year's Purdue team didn't have that guy and it ended up being their fatal flaw. Taking recruiting out of it (obviously Painter recruited these guys, so the buck stops with him), is the fact that there were no upperclassmen with that quality on this team something that Matt failed to develop, or is that just who these guys are?

Is it reasonable to hope that Vince, Biggie, Dakota, Cline or Carsen could develop into that type of player next year?

The way Hammons/Davis play is VERY different than Vince, Swanigan, Mathias, Cline, etc. VERY different.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Painter came into this game with # 10 ranked team. He was 7 seeds above his opponent. Built up a 13 point gap late in the game, then choked it away.

He is paid to win games. When it mattered the most, he lost a game he had no business losing.

Purdue lost this lead and several others for the same reason. They lacked a ball handling penetrating guard with a decent perimeter shot when it was time to burn clock. You can't burn twenty five seconds off the shot clock standing outside and then expect to run offense without some one who can break down the d on his own...like UALR had yesterday. Put Valentine on Purdues roster and they are a 1 seed and rolling to the final 4.

 

[Dakota Girl]

The way Hammons/Davis play is VERY different than Vince, Swanigan, Mathias, Cline, etc. VERY different.

Ibo, can you elaborate? My brain is stunted from arguing with trolls in another thread.

 

[atmafola]

Purdue lost this lead and several others for the same reason. They lacked a ball handling penetrating guard with a decent perimeter shot when it was time to burn clock. You can't burn twenty five seconds off the shot clock standing outside and then expect to run offense without some one who can break down the d on his own...like UALR had yesterday. Put Valentine on Purdues roster and they are a 1 seed and rolling to the final 4.

Nah, with Painter as coach, they still flame out at Sweet 16 at best. Our coach is good, but he just doesn't have "it".

 

[Schnelk]

Disagree with Ibodel: Hammons has been money in most of our wins, especially late in the season. I say he's been very clutch. They denied him the ball and when he did get it he was mauled. Agree we made a lot of bonehead mistakes which were compounded by some really lucky moments for ALR. Sucks all the same.

 

[northside100]

Painter came into this game with # 10 ranked team. He was 7 seeds above his opponent. Built up a 13 point gap late in the game, then choked it away.

He is paid to win games. When it mattered the most, he lost a game he had no business losing.

atm, I'm going to assume that you're interested in a serious debate and not just trolling when I say that all of the things you state above are true, but it doesn't address the topic on this post.

All teams and coaches run into games where an underdog is playing well and their own shots aren't falling. Great teams have a player or player who put the team on their back and refuse to let them lose when that happens. This team lost a number of games this year because they didn't have that player. The question is whether that's a lack of player development or a personnel issue with the upperclassmen.

I've absolutely loved watching AJ and RD play the last two years, they brought this program back from the dead, but offensively I don't think that either of them has it in their DNA to be "the guy" that consistently stops the other team's streak when then game is on the line.

 

[atmafola]

atm, I'm going to assume that you're interested in a serious debate and not just trolling when I say that all of the things you state above are true, but it doesn't address the topic on this post.

All teams and coaches run into games where an underdog is playing well and their own shots aren't falling. Great teams have a player or player who put the team on their back and refuse to let them lose when that happens. This team lost a number of games this year because they didn't have that player. The question is whether that's a lack of player development or a personnel issue with the upperclassmen.

I've absolutely loved watching AJ and RD play the last two years, they brought this program back from the dead, but offensively I don't think that either of them has it in their DNA to be "the guy" that consistently stops the other team's streak when then game is on the line.

whats there to debate? This was a frustrating and unnecessary loss. This is not like a regular season loss that you can learn something from. This is not the NBA playoffs where you get other games to redeem yourself. CMP choked. I am not even interested in analyzing the reasons why. He flat out lost a game he shouldn't have. Please let me wallow in my misery in peace.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Nah, with Painter as coach, they still flame out at Sweet 16 at best. Our coach is good, but he just doesn't have "it".

I would agree with you if the definition of "it" is recruiting that guy we lack. I've coached enough (just travel ball) to know that it's mostly about your players abilities both physical and mental. The coach can bump them up or down some based on his abilities but only so much. Now if you consistently have the best players and your coach is good, well then you are Duke.

 

[atmafola]

I would agree with you if the definition of "it" is recruiting that guy we lack. I've coached enough (just travel ball) to know that it's mostly about your players abilities both physical and mental. The coach can bump them up or down some based on his abilities but only so much. Now if you consistently have the best players and your coach is good, well then you are Duke.

Please keep deluding yourself if you think recruiting is the only thing standing between us and a FF run. It takes more than just ability to win the big games. It takes mentality as well. Talent can win you games against teams you are clearly better than. When the stakes get bigger and you are playing teams with equivalent or better talent, that's when that "it" factor comes into place. CMP doesn't have it. Good coach, not a great one.

 

[lbodel]

Disagree with Ibodel: Hammons has been money in most of our wins, especially late in the season. I say he's been very clutch. They denied him the ball and when he did get it he was mauled. Agree we made a lot of bonehead mistakes which were compounded by some really lucky moments for ALR. Sucks all the same.

That's the point. He's been money IN OUR WINS.

I also wouldn't say he's been very "present" in the stretch of games, where we've had trouble.

It's not all of his fault, but like I said - it's not also about him shooting. When he's not in the paint, he's also not getting offensive rebounds (which we had fewer than LR yesterday). Yesterday, he didn't bang inside.

 

[northside100]

Feel free to wallow away, I get it, but I'm with DG, the "it" factor is mostly in the players, not driven by the coach and the problem with this team is that the closest thing to an "it" guy offensively was AJ, and come tournament time bigs routinely get hammered by smaller teams and don't get the calls.

 

[atmafola]

Feel free to wallow away, I get it, but I'm with DG, the "it" factor is mostly in the players, not driven by the coach and the problem with this team is that the closest thing to an "it" guy offensively was AJ, and come tournament time bigs routinely get hammered by smaller teams and don't get the calls.

Heck even if I agreed with you, the blame still comes down to the coach for not recruiting players that have "it". Personally, I am willing to bet we will never reach a FF under Painter. We didn't under Gene Keady, we won't under Gene Keady lite.

 

[lbodel]

Ibo, can you elaborate? My brain is stunted from arguing with trolls in another thread.

AJ is AJ...he's not really a "give me the ball I'm going to win this" type of guy. That's just not what he's ever been.

Davis is an amazing defender and has improved offensively, but still a bit hesitant. At the end, he was also not a "give me the ball I'm going to take care of it" guy. He looked a little scared at the end.

Edwards, Cline, Mathias, Swanigan - they aren't scared to shoot. We've seen them all step up at the end of games this year. And it's not saying that Davis/Hammons never do, but as seniors, they aren't ones to really "take control" and handle things.

It's not some complaint them, we know who they are. But I think our younger guys do play with more confidence and have a little bit more moxy, particularly offensively.

 

[boiler-deuce]

Heck even if I agreed with you, the blame still comes down to the coach for not recruiting players that have "it". Personally, I am willing to bet we will never reach a FF under Painter. We didn't under Gene Keady, we won't under Gene Keady lite.

Point well taken. This is why you see coaches winning consistently. Some coaches will have many valleys with peaks few and far between. This is Painter. I'm sorry, but IMO, he had the talent this year. We were ranked all year. All flipping year. One of, if not THE, biggest team in the country. 2 defensive players of the year on the team (Hammons, Davis). Sadly those two never won a NCAA game. Another NBA likely duo in Biggie and Edwards. To build that lead and blow it is directly on Painter.

How you manage to watch a team hit a game tying 3, and then inbound the ball and stand in the corner with no clue what to do is incredible. 4-5 seconds ticked away and OT was apparently accepted as the outcome. Shocking. He's had enough talent to reach AT MINIMUM the Elite8...one was blamed on a knee injury and this one can be blamed on nobody but coaching. Telling me that the Hummel injury is just that....an excuse. If 3rd place with 4 teams and one and done in the NCAA is good enough, then fine, we have that. Congrats.

 

[lbodel]

Point well taken. This is why you see coaches winning consistently. Some coaches will have many valleys with peaks few and far between. This is Painter. I'm sorry, but IMO, he had the talent this year. We were ranked all year. All flipping year. One of, if not THE, biggest team in the country. 2 defensive players of the year on the team (Hammons, Davis). Sadly those two never won a NCAA game. Another NBA likely duo in Biggie and Edwards. To build that lead and blow it is directly on Painter.

How you manage to watch a team hit a game tying 3, and then inbound the ball and stand in the corner with no clue what to do is incredible. 4-5 seconds ticked away and OT was apparently accepted as the outcome. Shocking. He's had enough talent to reach AT MINIMUM the Elite8...one was blamed on a knee injury and this one can be blamed on nobody but coaching. Telling me that the Hummel injury is just that....an excuse. If 3rd place with 4 teams and one and done in the NCAA is good enough, then fine, we have that. Congrats.

I think the overall point people are trying to make is - your expectations are not exactly realistic. There are very few programs that meet the expectations that people seem to have and I don't see anyone presenting "solutions" because this "it" coach is rather mythical.

I'm not happy with the result from yesterday, but you can't say oh man, this guy can't coach - while also pointing out how consistently we were good throughout an entire season and have talent. That means a coach is good, no?

The NCAA Tournament just takes 1 freaking game to ruin your season. Almost every team exits this tournament disappointingly. We went an entire season without a bad loss - which is impressive to do these days. Unfortunately the one trip up didn't come during the season, it came in a tournament situation.

 

[atmafola]

Ibodel, not every loss is disappointment. We lost to Florida in Kramers first year and everybody was proud of that team. Heck, even in the loss to Kansas in Hummels last year, we were content.

If we flamed out in the elite 8 this year to a legit team, people would still rue the loss but won't be this disappointed, angry and frustrated. This was a horrible horrible way to lose out. And tihs is not the pros, we can say we will come back next year and do it again. Two of our biggest pieces are graduating!

 

[boiler-deuce]

I think the overall point people are trying to make is - your expectations are not exactly realistic. There are very few programs that meet the expectations that people seem to have and I don't see anyone presenting "solutions" because this "it" coach is rather mythical.

I'm not happy with the result from yesterday, but you can't say oh man, this guy can't coach - while also pointing out how consistently we were good throughout an entire season and have talent. That means a coach is good, no?

The NCAA Tournament just takes 1 freaking game to ruin your season. Almost every team exits this tournament disappointingly. We went an entire season without a bad loss - which is impressive to do these days. Unfortunately the one trip up didn't come during the season, it came in a tournament situation.

OK, I'm so tired of this worn out excuse of "other teams suck in the NCAA too". I'm tired of being just another half ass program in sports in general. If sucking like a bunch of other teams is consolation enough, that's fine. Admit it. Stop beating around the bush and dodging it. Own it. And admit to the IU trolls that come here that Crean owns Painter and it's ok. Then, we can hire some half ass nobody off the streets, save the salary, and put it into something worthwhile. Don't ask folks to buy and wear the gear, buy tickets, travel to games...then lay an embarrassing egg. Stop hyping the one and done trip....just own the mentality of mediocrity if perfectly good enough. But, seriously, don't insult us with Painter is some "good" coach. Stop selling the lie.

 

[northside100]

Heck even if I agreed with you, the blame still comes down to the coach for not recruiting players that have "it". Personally, I am willing to bet we will never reach a FF under Painter. We didn't under Gene Keady, we won't under Gene Keady lite.

100% correct, coach is accountable for recruiting and there was an extended time period where Matt missed badly in recruiting, for which he should be and is held accountable for. AJ and RD were great for the program, but weren't the "it" guys you need to make a real run in the tourney.

For me there are two questions around Painter that I'm anxious to see shake out 1) What can he do over the next two years with the current sophomore and freshman classes and the new kid coming in? and 2) Can he make some noise in recruiting with the loaded class of 2017?

 

[northside100]

AJ is AJ...he's not really a "give me the ball I'm going to win this" type of guy. That's just not what he's ever been.

Davis is an amazing defender and has improved offensively, but still a bit hesitant. At the end, he was also not a "give me the ball I'm going to take care of it" guy. He looked a little scared at the end.

Edwards, Cline, Mathias, Swanigan - they aren't scared to shoot. We've seen them all step up at the end of games this year. And it's not saying that Davis/Hammons never do, but as seniors, they aren't ones to really "take control" and handle things.

It's not some complaint them, we know who they are. But I think our younger guys do play with more confidence and have a little bit more moxy, particularly offensively.

I think you nailed it with this Ibodel, which is what will make the next couple of years interesting. AJ and RD were tremendous for this program, but they had their own limitations and the lack of any impact from the junior class really hurt this team.

 

[atmafola]

Down goes MSU!!!!!
Finally, Purdue won't be definition of a choke job.

 

[northside100]

OK, I'm so tired of this worn out excuse of "other teams suck in the NCAA too". I'm tired of being just another half ass program in sports in general. If sucking like a bunch of other teams is consolation enough, that's fine. Admit it. Stop beating around the bush and dodging it. Own it. And admit to the IU trolls that come here that Crean owns Painter and it's ok. Then, we can hire some half ass nobody off the streets, save the salary, and put it into something worthwhile. Don't ask folks to buy and wear the gear, buy tickets, travel to games...then lay an embarrassing egg. Stop hyping the one and done trip....just own the mentality of mediocrity if perfectly good enough. But, seriously, don't insult us with Painter is some "good" coach. Stop selling the lie.

Your posts are drivel deuce, they add nothing to the conversation. If you're trolling you're putting forth a good effort.

 

[Dakota Girl]

AJ is AJ...he's not really a "give me the ball I'm going to win this" type of guy. That's just not what he's ever been.

Davis is an amazing defender and has improved offensively, but still a bit hesitant. At the end, he was also not a "give me the ball I'm going to take care of it" guy. He looked a little scared at the end.

Edwards, Cline, Mathias, Swanigan - they aren't scared to shoot. We've seen them all step up at the end of games this year. And it's not saying that Davis/Hammons never do, but as seniors, they aren't ones to really "take control" and handle things.

It's not some complaint them, we know who they are. But I think our younger guys do play with more confidence and have a little bit more moxy, particularly offensively.

Yes, dead on. Great people from what we can tell but they did not take the moment. I do believe that we could be better over next few years for the reasons you described.

 

[boiler-deuce]

Your posts are drivel deuce, they add nothing to the conversation. If you're trolling you're putting forth a good effort.

Basically, you have no rebuttal. My point was clear. CLEAR! You can only turn a blind eye to my obvious points. And you have nothing to counter my post. All you have is typical "Troll" accusations. That's worn out here. I'm a Boiler fan and Alum. Just because I've decided losing and hugely underachieving is unacceptable, does not make me a Troll. Save it. Before you claim someone else has nothing to add to a conversation, try putting something up value added yourself. I'm not trying to get into some petulant fight, but my comments are spot on. And incredibly over due. This conversation is about 6 years late. You may not like it, but this team was not a one and done team.

 

[lbodel]

Ibodel, not every loss is disappointment. We lost to Florida in Kramers first year and everybody was proud of that team. Heck, even in the loss to Kansas in Hummels last year, we were content.

If we flamed out in the elite 8 this year to a legit team, people would still rue the loss but won't be this disappointed, angry and frustrated. This was a horrible horrible way to lose out. And tihs is not the pros, we can say we will come back next year and do it again. Two of our biggest pieces are graduating!

No, absolutely not every loss in the NCAA Tournament is a disappointment/something to be angry about. But a majority of them are! 32 teams are going home in the first round - basically anyone that's a 1-10 seed is going to be disappointed in losing. Another 16 go home in the 2nd round. So maybe 16/64 teams are happy each year with obviously some of those 16 teams probably be disappointed if a #1 seed.

 

[WarBoiler44]

Yep ... 100% yep on your first two paragraphs. On your last paragraph, maybe Biggie, could be VInce, but am afraid not. You don't list Haas, who I think could demand the ball and "force" it into the basket, which is what go-to guys do. On the other hand, those kinds of guys need to be guards so they start out with the ball and need to be very athletic so they can do things with the ball.

This....^^^. Isaac is a gamer!! Last year walked into Ass Hall and hit clutch free throws and scored 12 to help beat IU at home. At the beginning of the season is when Isaac thrived this year against teams like LR, admittedly not quite as good, but no one gave him credit due to the teams being "mid-major" school. Of course, no one knows whether Haas is a clutch player at this point because he was never given an opportunity. (Save me the "AJ is far superior" replies, because the Haas family loves AJ as much as anyone on this forum). What we are talking about is who can demand the ball, get open and get a good look at the basket, right? There was a picture on Journal Courier from last night that showed Isaac shooting a hook, triple teamed and the defenders hand wasn't even up to his face. That is an open look even when you are triple teamed.
Also, as far as playing time next year for Haas. You can bet your sweet ass that he will be more motivated than ever to put the necessary work in the off season to play an effective 25-30 minutes per game and lead this team with enthusiasm and a positive team attitude. You can take that to the bank!! BOILER UP!