Great or Good...

[Boiler Buck]

Different views of whether CMP is a great or a good coach.

Besides FFs everyone clamors about.....a different data point in the argument toward great is.....
Can CMP put together a B1G champ team after losing the all everything, B1G player of the year and All American Swanigan?

Ask me 6 month ago, I would of said no possible way. Now I am not so sure. Watching the first few games....maybe?? Certainly is possible.

But in any case, IMO if he does that, I think he is B1G Coach of the year and will perhaps garner some additional national votes for coach of the year. Certainly would be quite an outstanding accomplishment after losing CS....and another data point toward great.

So lets watch the fun and see.....

 

[TC4THREE]

Different views of whether CMP is a great or a good coach.

Besides FFs everyone clamors about.....a different data point in the argument toward great is.....
Can CMP put together a B1G champ team after losing the all everything, B1G player of the year and All American Swanigan?

Ask me 6 month ago, I would of said no possible way. Now I am not so sure. Watching the first few games....maybe?? Certainly is possible.

But in any case, IMO if he does that, I think he is B1G Coach of the year and will perhaps garner some additional national votes for coach of the year. Certainly would be quite an outstanding accomplishment after losing CS....and another data point toward great.

So lets watch the fun and see.....

It would give him a bit of a Bo-Ryan-type of season. Seems like every other year the press wrote Wisconsin off based on who Bo Ryan was losing from the previous season and they still finished near the top of the Big Ten. Losing Swanigan is a big loss but I have a feeling most people felt we'd still be pretty good this year. It will be next season when it will be even more impressive if we can put together a tournament team and finish in the top 4 of the conference after losing 4 senior starters.

 

[Hausta01]

I don't think CMP has shown us great yet. He has shown us good and gotten us used to good. He has gotten better at getting kids he thinks will fit the culture he wants, and is now getting better at finding the more talented versions of those kids.

He made a nice adjustment against Marquette to just feed Haas the ball since they weren't doubling which I don't think he makes before.

Also, he has shouted, "MOVE!" Way more lately which is of course better than not (and significantly better than clapping).

 

[BoilerBabyGirl]

If you guys are really asking this question there must be no clear separation between good and great in your head.

 

[Boiler Buck]

It would give him a bit of a Bo-Ryan-type of season. Seems like every other year the press wrote Wisconsin off based on who Bo Ryan was losing from the previous season and they still finished near the top of the Big Ten. Losing Swanigan is a big loss but I have a feeling most people felt we'd still be pretty good this year. It will be next season when it will be even more impressive if we can put together a tournament team and finish in the top 4 of the conference after losing 4 senior starters.

Yea thought we would be good....top 4 no doubt. A championship is way different than just being "Good" IMO.

No one sane who saw Swanigan play, and his role to the team, thought we would win the B1G though again after losing him....that is a different deal than just being "good". Still might not...but MAJOR props to coach if we do.

 

[Boilerman1973]

Matt Painter is a very good coach but let's hold back on that great word great to me is those coaches that have final four appearances and more than one. And I'm not putting painter down in any way because one day he can become great. But as of right now he's a very good coach just needs to get over that final four hurdle.

 

[Gold&Black]

Keady didn't have any FFs. Final score Gene 21, Bobby 20. I have the shirt.

 

[Wolegib]

I'll answer your question with a question - do you believe Keady was a good or great coach? Was Keady as good as Knight? Painter is on almost the exact same path as Keady accomplished, winning 20+ games consistently, winning BIG 10 titles and making the Sweet 16. Give painter another 10 years, and his achievements will probably match Keady's.

I believe the true assessment of a coach's ability is to coach an all star team representing the U.S. in so doing, the team is supposed to win it all. the coach selects his own team and picks invited players who are supposedly the best of the best, minus those who are more interested in themselves. Other countries have all star teams and about the same amount of time to practice. if that U.S. coach can win that tourney such as the Olympics or World or pan Am games with players he's never coached before, then I'd say that's a great coach. if hat coach comes in second or third, then I'd say that's a good coach. if he doesn't medal, that's a bad coach.

After the third place finish in the World games, I'd label Calipari as a great recruiter, but only a good coach. I believe Painter is as good as Keady. great coaches win the big games that matter. great coaches win games that are ugly. yo u don't need to be a great coach to win if you had MJ, Kareem or Lebron on your team. however, a great coach helped elevate all three of their games to make them champions.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

Different views of whether CMP is a great or a good coach.

Besides FFs everyone clamors about.....a different data point in the argument toward great is.....
Can CMP put together a B1G champ team after losing the all everything, B1G player of the year and All American Swanigan?

Ask me 6 month ago, I would of said no possible way. Now I am not so sure. Watching the first few games....maybe?? Certainly is possible.

But in any case, IMO if he does that, I think he is B1G Coach of the year and will perhaps garner some additional national votes for coach of the year. Certainly would be quite an outstanding accomplishment after losing CS....and another data point toward great.

So lets watch the fun and see.....

I think he's good and trending towards great. He has improved a lot since his first year here and it has been continual improvement with no reason to believe he won't continue improving. Remember he's still very young compared to his peers. He has adjusted to the game and changed tactics when they didn't work and fought for the program with administrators. I like him. Stock is pointing up.

 

[boilerHup]

I think he's good and trending towards great. He has improved a lot since his first year here and it has been continual improvement with no reason to believe he won't continue improving. Remember he's still very young compared to his peers. He has adjusted to the game and changed tactics when they didn't work and fought for the program with administrators. I like him. Stock is pointing up.

Something else to keep in mind is that he's had good teams that played a multitude of different styles. He's won with a great defense and a mediocre offense (2010). He's won with a great offense and a mediocre defense (2012). He's won with teams that were turnover-prone (2015) and with teams that were the best in the country at taking care of the ball (2012). He's won with great rebounding teams (2017) and awful rebounding teams (2009). The knock on Painter is that he's too stubborn. Stubborn coaches have teams that display the same strengths and weaknesses year after year. The only type of team Painter hasn't won with is a team of low-character guys, and I don't think that is going to be an issue going forward.

 

[FirstDownB]

In hindsight we probably should have had more confidence in this year's team. I still am concerned about rebounding and how we will match up against teams with quick guards and skilled bigs. But this year's team goes to show with recruiting it is as much about not having the big misses as it is about landing the big fish. The only real miss in the 2014-2016 classes was Weatherford. Between 2008-2013 there were about 2 misses per year.

 

[buffboiler]

I remember the game where we lost the sweet sixteen game against KSU.
The ball hit Everett's leg and bounced off. That is kinda a misfortune
that cost us one of the legit title opportunity.

Just a side note, I was watching the old game against Minn when they were #1, guess what I saw during the game.

Yep, Everette almost turned the ball over a couple times by the ball off his legs..

Ouch!

 

[cgnops]

What I like most about Painter at this point is that he is admittedly still learning, and (from my perspective) he is continuing to improve. I don't think he has reached his ceiling yet and I wouldn't be surprised to see that when he retires he will do so as the most respected active Big Ten coach.

 

[Boilerman1973]

So do we all agree that he's a good coach not a great coach or is he a great coach but not a good coach?

 

[Wolegib]

I would say good coach! But by my same reasoning, Keady was also a good coach! The only difference is Keady coached longer! And by my reasoning there have only been about 10 great coaches!

 

[threeeputtt]

Wait until he loses one he shouldn't this year. This board will be different!

 

[klmLB]

I wouldn't have said this 2 years ago but I say very good coach. Based on his career to this point and particularly basing the last 2-3 seasons (coming off those terrible 2 seasons), I would say he's a better coach than coach keady.

I think in general Painter's teams are more dynamic and have more threats on the floor than keady's teams. I think with the increased budget and travel, he has been really great at finding and getting players that previously wouldn't consider purdue (carsen - houston, haas - ala, center from Miami that just committed) while still getting the type of player he wants (eg coachable). In general, I think he has raised the ceiling of players that would have considered purdue (tho I know many on here would love better rated recruits)... probably maximized it because to get higher rated recruits probably need to be dirty which he won't do or get lucky as we did with swanigan.

He's produced great results with the talent he has. I think with the trend upwards in terms of recruiting, I see no reason we won't have deeper ncaa tourney success eventually. I still worry that this year's team will lose to a very athletic squad but I think painter's recruiting momentum is on the upswing and the results will follow in similar trajectory.

 

[Dandelion1972]

I remember the game where we lost the sweet sixteen game against KSU.
The ball hit Everett's leg and bounced off. That is kinda a misfortune
that cost us one of the legit title opportunity.

Just a side note, I was watching the old game against Minn when they were #1, guess what I saw during the game.

Yep, Everette almost turned the ball over a couple times by the ball off his legs..

Ouch!

Thanks for bringing back the memory of that awful moment! I've tried to forget that for decades, but you HAD to pick the scab!

 

[buffboiler]

Thanks for bringing back the memory of that awful moment! I've tried to forget that for decades, but you HAD to pick the scab!

To add insults, would you take a guess where I work these days?

Yup, street across from the dang Pontiac Silverdome, or, what's left of it..

Every time I pass by that dome, that dreadful moment struck me. Getting used to it now.

 

[Charliehorse 29]

I don't think CMP has shown us great yet. He has shown us good and gotten us used to good. He has gotten better at getting kids he thinks will fit the culture he wants, and is now getting better at finding the more talented versions of those kids.

He made a nice adjustment against Marquette to just feed Haas the ball since they weren't doubling which I don't think he makes before.

Also, he has shouted, "MOVE!" Way more lately which is of course better than not (and significantly better than clapping).

Painter also got the Refs in the last game more than he has in the past.

 

[BBG]

I think he's good and trending towards great. He has improved a lot since his first year here and it has been continual improvement with no reason to believe he won't continue improving. Remember he's still very young compared to his peers. He has adjusted to the game and changed tactics when they didn't work and fought for the program with administrators. I like him. Stock is pointing up.

Great assessment here Top. He has shown the ability to adapt, change and grow in just a few years. He admitted to his mistakes when we had the black years and improved on it, which I think is about all we can ask for out of that situation.

We all would love to have a FF by now but I think it will come. It takes time to build a foundation, especially after the rules changed and we are seeing that paying off I think now.

This forum has been an enigma in my time here. As someone else mentioned before me, when we lose we will no doubt see opposite threads to this one and that is okay. What I have learned is that immediately after a loss or a win, people post with a LOT of emotion. It's just human nature, but once that all subsides I think most of us can agree that while there is no perfect coach out there, CMP over all is doing a great job here and I hope he is here for many years to come.

 

[bonefish1]

Matt Painter is a very good coach but let's hold back on that great word great to me is those coaches that have final four appearances and more than one. And I'm not putting painter down in any way because one day he can become great. But as of right now he's a very good coach just needs to get over that final four hurdle.

Totally agree. On a national level, you're assessed on what you do in the tourney. Unless you're getting to FFs, I think it's hard to consider someone a 'great' coach. Outside the B10, nobody knows or cares that you won the conference title. They care about what you do in March and that's how you'll be judged by the national pundits.

 

[bonefish1]

I think the difference between Painter and Keady, while both 'good' coaches, is that GK was very reluctant to change. His PGs were always the same, his defensive philosophy always the same, etc. I think that's why he was able to win a lot of B10 championships but was also his downfall when it came tourney time. He was unable to make adjustments and rarely focused on recruiting a PG with a scorers mentality.

 

[Hausta01]

I almost think some of us are too close (can't see the forest thru the trees) to see how good Painter really is. In Hummel's first injury year (2009?), we had a really short bench so we played at a Wisconsian pace because Painter knew he had guys playing 35+ minutes almost every game. Now we have a solid 8 man rotation, can go to 10 at least a little while, and we basically are a pace-and-space team.

His greatness as many have said is connected to FF and NCAA titles. We know he is good, probably very good, but not great yet. I'm hoping we see some greatness this year!

 

[JerseyBoiler]

Matt Painter is a very good coach but let's hold back on that great word great to me is those coaches that have final four appearances and more than one. And I'm not putting painter down in any way because one day he can become great. But as of right now he's a very good coach just needs to get over that final four hurdle.

A great coach takes recruiting classes ranked 30+ and has them consistently in the top 25 for almost 2 years, wins 20+ games per year, finishes the year in the top 15, wins the BIG and wins two rounds in the NCAA's. Make no mistake, Painter is a great coach. An elite coach goes to the FF consistently and maybe wins a NC. There are only a handful of elite coaches. Also, there can be elite or great schools from a historical perspective but with mediocre coaches. Have to separate schools from coaches.