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For those that wanted a big change...

No argument on that. He was in position in a lot of cases. Unfortunately he either got run over or run by.
This, combined with the fact that we have seen some good defense led by this staff in the past leads me out of the “fire someone” camp.
If the same problem exists 2 years from today then I may feel differently.
 
Barnes should have been moved back to LB after the TCU game. After seeing what their backs did to the Purdue defense, it should have been obvious Big 10 backs would do the same. They would have had other options to play at end and get another player the experience.
 
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This, combined with the fact that we have seen some good defense led by this staff in the past leads me out of the “fire someone” camp.
If the same problem exists 2 years from today then I may feel differently.

The secondary was largely out of position with numerous missed assignments thru the season. That's coaching...
 
The secondary was largely out of position with numerous missed assignments thru the season. That's coaching...
I wonder if part of the reason the secondary played so poorly in pass coverage was because they were hesitating looking to play run support, because of a lack of confidence their teammates would be able to make a play.
 
I wonder if part of the reason the secondary played so poorly in pass coverage was because they were hesitating looking to play run support, because of a lack of confidence their teammates would be able to make a play.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you watched the secondary, they were usually playing off the wide receivers by 7 to 10 yards and literally backing up past the 1st down marker. It's hard to play run support that way...
 
The secondary was largely out of position with numerous missed assignments thru the season. That's coaching...
It is. How many of those missed assignments were committed by young players? Which players blew the assignments?
Those are rhetorical questions because without knowing what the assignments were we cannot know who failed to do what was expected of them.
Before you tell me they should know by now consider that Mike Zimmer who is considered to be a defensive secondary expert coach plans on two seasons of development before he trusts a corner in Minnesota. I’d think the step from H.S. to P5 is similar.
All I am pointing out is that the solution to every problem is not necessarily to fire someone. Sometimes it is. But if the issue is not the coach but instead the experience and physical development of the players you might do more damage than good by changing things up.
We have some impressive young players at some positions. If there is no improvement over the next couple of seasons then there is a coaching problem. I don’t think that will be the case.
 
It is. How many of those missed assignments were committed by young players? Which players blew the assignments?
Those are rhetorical questions because without knowing what the assignments were we cannot know who failed to do what was expected of them.
Before you tell me they should know by now consider that Mike Zimmer who is considered to be a defensive secondary expert coach plans on two seasons of development before he trusts a corner in Minnesota. I’d think the step from H.S. to P5 is similar.
All I am pointing out is that the solution to every problem is not necessarily to fire someone. Sometimes it is. But if the issue is not the coach but instead the experience and physical development of the players you might do more damage than good by changing things up.
We have some impressive young players at some positions. If there is no improvement over the next couple of seasons then there is a coaching problem. I don’t think that will be the case.

A senior by the name of Mosley had several missed assignments. And the secondary didn't get better through the year.

What I will say is the offense, offensive line, and running back play all got better. Defensively, the line got better. The linebackers were horrendous all year (some of that was injury related). And the secondary didn't seem to improve either.
 
A senior by the name of Mosley had several missed assignments. And the secondary didn't get better through the year.

What I will say is the offense, offensive line, and running back play all got better. Defensively, the line got better. The linebackers were horrendous all year (some of that was injury related). And the secondary didn't seem to improve either.
I agree with your assessment of positional performance I just don’t see that it indicates a DC problem.
coaches can only marginally improve or degrade a given player’s capabilities. A better coach can make an average player good or a good player great, or a worse coach can take it the other way. But the bulk of performance is based on what the player has. In the future with more options players performing poorly will be benched. Unfortunately right now there just are not enough options.
 
I agree with your assessment of positional performance I just don’t see that it indicates a DC problem.
coaches can only marginally improve or degrade a given player’s capabilities. A better coach can make an average player good or a good player great, or a worse coach can take it the other way. But the bulk of performance is based on what the player has. In the future with more options players performing poorly will be benched. Unfortunately right now there just are not enough options.

I don't see how you can look at missed assignments, playing off WRs by 7-10 yards, backing past the 1st down marker and think anything other than development and coaching decisions. I can't believe players would just continue to play off WRs and choose blitz vs 3 man rush and continue to do that without being corrected. That's all coaching, not players acting independently.
 
Yeah, i get what he is looking for. I doubt he will find them, especially in the trenches.


This I can agree with. We both see the same articles.

It's obvious brohm is recruiting some JUCO players for o-line, d-line and LB. There was also a comment made about one d-lineman being way undersized at 260 pounds to start in the BIG 10 and was basically being pushed around.

Based on the players brohm is linked to recruiting, maybe brohm has come to the same conclusion I did about recruiting undersized linemen and redshirting the m with the hope they would gain 40+ pounds in their redshirt year. for many athletic people, gaining 40 pounds in one year is hard to do while still maintaining their athleticism. Al l of the linemen I see brohm linked to now are 280-320 pounds.

I will also agree going the juco route is a quick fix. To me, it sends the message if brohm is eve n thinking of recruiting jucos, he must not be happy with the development of his current players - redshirting or not.

and lastly, I will agree that in the past, the juco players - especially linemen that came to purdue were not the best. actually, they were pretty bad, and several that came here didn't even start. a total waste. However, several of these juco players have offers from other top 20 teams, so maybe they are a lot better than the previous worthless jucos Purdue coaches have recruited in the past.

what all of this says to me is that brohm is looking for a quick fix for 2020 and he's not happy with the development of a lot of his current players.
 
Don’t take this as an attack. I just can’t think of an answer to this question:
Who was better? I agree that Ben Holt lacked ideal size for the position but he was in position and was quite good at diagnosing and reacting to plays. Was there a player on the roster who could do all of that and was more physically capable?

that was my point. I don't think there's an argument to be made there was a better LB. What's more, it seemed to be suggested that Holt was playing ONLY because his dad was DC. I don't think Brohm would tolerate that. That was my point.
 
I don't see how you can look at missed assignments, playing off WRs by 7-10 yards, backing past the 1st down marker and think anything other than development and coaching decisions. I can't believe players would just continue to play off WRs and choose blitz vs 3 man rush and continue to do that without being corrected. That's all coaching, not players acting independently.
My point is that I don’t know exactly what is being coached or if players are not yet doing as coached. And unless you have significantly more access to practice and game planning than I realize, you don’t know either.
If players always did exactly what a coach told them, how they told them to do it, coaching would be easy. It isn’t.
Your assessment just doesn’t hold water when you look at the defenses performance two seasons back. Did they all just forget how to coach or was it just positive carryover from Hazel?
 
My point is that I don’t know exactly what is being coached or if players are not yet doing as coached. And unless you have significantly more access to practice and game planning than I realize, you don’t know either.
If players always did exactly what a coach told them, how they told them to do it, coaching would be easy. It isn’t.
Your assessment just doesn’t hold water when you look at the defenses performance two seasons back. Did they all just forget how to coach or was it just positive carryover from Hazel?
There's the root of the problem. The assumptions. Add to that you have a mix of players that were recruited by this staff and many that were not. Point being, once you have your hand selected players, if they are not coachable then that's still your problem.

I'm a believer that ultimately a coach is responsible for the team performance. Part of the coaching process is recruiting and being able to reach and influence your players. But this roster is still in transition, and if a senior is not taking the coaching and his freshman backup is not ready to play, what are your options?
 
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There's the root of the problem. The assumptions. Add to that you have a mix of players that were recruited by this staff and many that were not. Point being, once you have your hand selected players, if they are not coachable then that's still your problem.

I'm a believer that ultimately a coach is responsible for the team performance. Part of the coaching process is recruiting and being able to reach and influence your players. But this roster is still in transition, and if a senior is not taking the coaching and his freshman backup is not ready to play, what are your options?
I think that is where 1969 and I disagree. I may be wrong but this is how I see it.
 
My point is that I don’t know exactly what is being coached or if players are not yet doing as coached. And unless you have significantly more access to practice and game planning than I realize, you don’t know either.
If players always did exactly what a coach told them, how they told them to do it, coaching would be easy. It isn’t.
Your assessment just doesn’t hold water when you look at the defenses performance two seasons back. Did they all just forget how to coach or was it just positive carryover from Hazel?
one aspect not being mentioned is the culpability of the players, on the hosers first TD pass the announcer pointed out that the D was in man coverage and Mosely was just standing in space playing zone.
 
That’s fine but if there isn’t significant improvement next year and nothing osdone then it’s basically no better than a Scott frost erik chinander situation.

How is the defensive coordinator also the linebacker coach, we have been getting three star recruits, and I can’t name one f-ing linebacker that I know is going to be an impact player next year?

If no one wants to criticize holt, poindexter and brown that’s fine .. but you better line up and kiss Dale Williams ass. Because.. unlike those three.. his group made progress as the year went on.

Not harshly criticizing holt for the linebackers in particular would be like if Brohm was presiding over Caleb terbush and Sean Robinson at QB.. no different

Are any of the virgin linebackers any good?
 
There's the root of the problem. The assumptions. Add to that you have a mix of players that were recruited by this staff and many that were not. Point being, once you have your hand selected players, if they are not coachable then that's still your problem.

I'm a believer that ultimately a coach is responsible for the team performance. Part of the coaching process is recruiting and being able to reach and influence your players. But this roster is still in transition, and if a senior is not taking the coaching and his freshman backup is not ready to play, what are your options?
There's the root of the problem. The assumptions. Add to that you have a mix of players that were recruited by this staff and many that were not. Point being, once you have your hand selected players, if they are not coachable then that's still your problem.

I'm a believer that ultimately a coach is responsible for the team performance. Part of the coaching process is recruiting and being able to reach and influence your players. But this roster is still in transition, and if a senior is not taking the coaching and his freshman backup is not ready to play, what are your options?
the players have to buy into it , I read an article in the local paper the other day about DeVonte Cross ( local kid who was an all state QB in H.S.) who is now a starting DB at UVA. H e said the biggest thing that Bronco did was making the kids buy into the team because there was alot of coaching turnover previously there. Since spring practice , they lost 5 DB's to season ending injuries and he switched to DB and is doing well.
 
one aspect not being mentioned is the culpability of the players, on the hosers first TD pass the announcer pointed out that the D was in man coverage and Mosely was just standing in space playing zone.
Yes. Fans have a tendency to blame coaching for everything they don’t like without knowledge of the true cause. All coaches can do is teach a kid what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and why to do it. After that it’s on the player. If a kid can’t get it, bench him. If you don’t have anyone better you see what we saw this season.
 
[QUOTE="Wolegib, post: 2405002, member: 37187"

and lastly, I will agree that in the past, the juco players - especially linemen that came to purdue were not the best. actually, they were pretty bad, and several that came here didn't even start. a total waste. However, several of these juco players have offers from other top 20 teams, so maybe they are a lot better than the previous worthless jucos Purdue coaches have recruited in the past.
[/QUOTE]

Rob Ninkovich was a nice exception.
 
Yes. Fans have a tendency to blame coaching for everything they don’t like without knowledge of the true cause. All coaches can do is teach a kid what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and why to do it. After that it’s on the player. If a kid can’t get it, bench him. If you don’t have anyone better you see what we saw this season.

I guess we'll find out next season if Holt is for real or a poser. This will be year #4 and injuries, Hazells players, etc will no longer be an excuse. If the secondary plays as poorly as it did this year, then the common denominator is coaching.

Personally, I believe the last two seasons tell us exactly what we have in Holt, someone who yells a lot on the sideline but doesn't communicate well with his players. The secondary and defense in general has regressed over the past two seasons.

Here's an example of what happened in his third year at Washington as DC in 2011:
"While 2011 saw the emergence of sophomore quarterback Keith Price and improvement on offense, the Huskies were ranked near the bottom in the conference and nationally on defense (of 120 FBS teams: 106th in yards allowed, 108th in points allowed, 116th in passing yards allowed)."

His defensive stats by year as DC. See a pattern???
2009 390 ypg 240 passing 149 rushing 26 ppg Washington
2010 384 ypg 194 passing 190 rushing 30 ppg Washington
2011 453 ypg 285 passing 169 rushing 36 ppg Washington
2013 339 ypg 178 passing 161 rushing 25 ppg WKU
2014 509 ypg 289 passing 220 rushing 40 ppg WKU
2015 404 ypg 240 passing 164 rushing 26 ppg WKU
2016 344 ypg 280 passing 97 rushing 25 ppg WKU
2017 376 ypg 243 passing 133 rushing 20 ppg Purdue
2018 452 ypg 285 passing 167 rushing 30 ppg Purdue
2019 436 ypg 244 passing 192 rushing 31 ppg Purdue

Prior to him arriving at WKU:
2011 374 ypg 239 passing 135 rushing 25 ppg
2012 348 ypg 210 passing 138 rushing 26 ppg

After he left WKU:
2017 377 ypg 206 passing 170 rushing 27 ppg
2018 422 ypg 249 passing 174 rushing 28 ppg
2019 337 ypg 200 passing 137 rushing 20 ppg
 
I guess we'll find out next season if Holt is for real or a poser. This will be year #4 and injuries, Hazells players, etc will no longer be an excuse. If the secondary plays as poorly as it did this year, then the common denominator is coaching.

Personally, I believe the last two seasons tell us exactly what we have in Holt, someone who yells a lot on the sideline but doesn't communicate well with his players. The secondary and defense in general has regressed over the past two seasons.

Here's an example of what happened in his third year at Washington as DC in 2011:
"While 2011 saw the emergence of sophomore quarterback Keith Price and improvement on offense, the Huskies were ranked near the bottom in the conference and nationally on defense (of 120 FBS teams: 106th in yards allowed, 108th in points allowed, 116th in passing yards allowed)."

His defensive stats by year as DC. See a pattern???
2009 390 ypg 240 passing 149 rushing 26 ppg Washington
2010 384 ypg 194 passing 190 rushing 30 ppg Washington
2011 453 ypg 285 passing 169 rushing 36 ppg Washington
2013 339 ypg 178 passing 161 rushing 25 ppg WKU
2014 509 ypg 289 passing 220 rushing 40 ppg WKU
2015 404 ypg 240 passing 164 rushing 26 ppg WKU
2016 344 ypg 280 passing 97 rushing 25 ppg WKU
2017 376 ypg 243 passing 133 rushing 20 ppg Purdue
2018 452 ypg 285 passing 167 rushing 30 ppg Purdue
2019 436 ypg 244 passing 192 rushing 31 ppg Purdue

Prior to him arriving at WKU:
2011 374 ypg 239 passing 135 rushing 25 ppg
2012 348 ypg 210 passing 138 rushing 26 ppg

After he left WKU:
2017 377 ypg 206 passing 170 rushing 27 ppg
2018 422 ypg 249 passing 174 rushing 28 ppg
2019 337 ypg 200 passing 137 rushing 20 ppg
I am enjoying this discussion so please don’t take my differing opinion as inflammatory.
I do see that the defensive numbers are higher than most teams tend to have. In the case of WKU and Purdue I suspect that is attributable to the offenses being fast strike low ball control in nature. I don’t know about Washington’s offensive style at the time.
I think you are correct that the D needs to get better each of the next two seasons. But, If your expecting to see a defense allowing top ten defensive yards and points type numbers I suspect you will be disappointed as long as Brohm is here regardless of who the DC is.
 
I am enjoying this discussion so please don’t take my differing opinion as inflammatory.
I do see that the defensive numbers are higher than most teams tend to have. In the case of WKU and Purdue I suspect that is attributable to the offenses being fast strike low ball control in nature. I don’t know about Washington’s offensive style at the time.
I think you are correct that the D needs to get better each of the next two seasons. But, If your expecting to see a defense allowing top ten defensive yards and points type numbers I suspect you will be disappointed as long as Brohm is here regardless of who the DC is.

Differing opinions are why we're here. Thanks for a good discussion.

I don't think we'll see top 10 defenses, but they need to be respectable (top 50). I hope Holt can manage some significant improvement, as we'll only be as good as our D.
 
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keep an eye out for Wahlberg and Saunders.

I believe that Wahlberg will get quite a bit of time next season and could potentially end up as a 2 or 3 year starter for Purdue. Know a couple of coaches who saw him quite a bit in high school and they're pretty high on him.
 
I believe that Wahlberg will get quite a bit of time next season and could potentially end up as a 2 or 3 year starter for Purdue. Know a couple of coaches who saw him quite a bit in high school and they're pretty high on him.
seems like the type of LB's that Iowa usually has or like the MLB Minny had last year #36 wasn't flashy just made tackles.
 
I am enjoying this discussion so please don’t take my differing opinion as inflammatory.
I do see that the defensive numbers are higher than most teams tend to have. In the case of WKU and Purdue I suspect that is attributable to the offenses being fast strike low ball control in nature. I don’t know about Washington’s offensive style at the time.
I think you are correct that the D needs to get better each of the next two seasons. But, If your expecting to see a defense allowing top ten defensive yards and points type numbers I suspect you will be disappointed as long as Brohm is here regardless of who the DC is.
major part of the problem at WKU was they had no edge rushers at all, opposing QB's had alot of time to find open receivers
 
seems like the type of LB's that Iowa usually has or like the MLB Minny had last year #36 wasn't flashy just made tackles.

Exactly, and similar to the comments I've heard. Also hearing the same types of analysis' on Kreul(the 2020 LB commit from Wisconsin) except he may be quicker/more athletic - better ability to cover in space.
 
Yes. Fans have a tendency to blame coaching for everything they don’t like without knowledge of the true cause. All coaches can do is teach a kid what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and why to do it. After that it’s on the player. If a kid can’t get it, bench him. If you don’t have anyone better you see what we saw this season.

Coaches are responsible for the players. I don’t want to hear that shit ever.

You get 85 scholarships and this staff will be bringing in their 4th class, 3 of which are all them. If Thienemann or smiley are out of position next year, I’m gonna know why Marvin grant or Cory Trice isn’t at SS.. if Allen isn’t on the field and isn’t hurt, that’s a roster development issue
 
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As I've said before(and this applies to all of the Purdue linebackers) with the youth and lack of depth on Purdue's D-line(DT mainly) the LB's have not been able to react, fill gaps and simply meet runners in the holes. Not claiming the Purdue LB'S were great this season but an uptick in DT play will certainly help considerably.

Holt has had three years on the job.

Why? I understand that cornel Jones is a good player who was hurt and they had to scramble and could only get Tobias Larry in 2017... why were there no 2018 recruits playing as redshirt freshmen?

Nick Holt is a defensive coordinator. The expectation for that level is that when It comes to your position, you should be able to recruit good players and have them on the field doing things as redshirt freshmen.

Why wasn’t that the case?
 
Holt has had three years on the job.

Why? I understand that cornel Jones is a good player who was hurt and they had to scramble and could only get Tobias Larry in 2017... why were there no 2018 recruits playing as redshirt freshmen?

Nick Holt is a defensive coordinator. The expectation for that level is that when It comes to your position, you should be able to recruit good players and have them on the field doing things as redshirt freshmen.

Why wasn’t that the case?

There were redshirt freshmen playing this season, right? But expecting a lineup heavily dependent upon guys that age to perform really well isn't feasible, unless they're all at the caliber and physical development level of Karlaftis. And as I said, the lack of experienced depth(meaning upperclassmen) mostly at the DT position causes lots of problems for LB'S. That's primarily the result of poor recruiting by the prior staff. Fortunately it should (and I believe will) be better next year and even better in 2021.
 
There were redshirt freshmen playing this season, right? But expecting a lineup heavily dependent upon guys that age to perform really well isn't feasible, unless they're all at the caliber and physical development level of Karlaftis. And as I said, the lack of experienced depth(meaning upperclassmen) mostly at the DT position causes lots of problems for LB'S. That's primarily the result of poor recruiting by the prior staff. Fortunately it should (and I believe will) be better next year and even better in 2021.

What redshirt freshman 2018 linebacker did anything for us?

I asked why no one from the 18 class not 19. And before you reply.. Alexander was below average at best
 
What redshirt freshman 2018 linebacker did anything for us?

I asked why no one from the 18 class not 19. And before you reply.. Alexander was below average at best

There were only 2 LB'S in the '18 class right? Alexander actually didn't play poorly. But the original point of my post(the one to which you originally replied) still stands - D-line play impacts the effectiveness of the linebackers quite a bit. And with the lack of upperclassmen (and thus developed depth) of Purdue's defensive tackles it's difficult to have good LB play.
 
There were only 2 LB'S in the '18 class right? Alexander actually didn't play poorly. But the original point of my post(the one to which you originally replied) still stands - D-line play impacts the effectiveness of the linebackers quite a bit. And with the lack of upperclassmen (and thus developed depth) of Purdue's defensive tackles it's difficult to have good LB play.

Ok the coaches are accountable for the roster. You don’t get to note that there were only two linebackers in the 18 class like there is this other group making those decisions.

If you take two or cant sell a good enough player and end up with less than you need that’s on you as a DC.

Against IU.. the DL got five sacks and as soon as holt went away from his 3-0-8 defense they stalled James then hurt him.

Where were the linebackers?

Also it’s 2018 not 1988 v Michigan. A lot of teams got quick hitting passes out against our back seven that came out so quick that chase young wouldn’t have gotten home.

The DL needs two things cause coach Johnson is actually producing

1. Watts needs to get healthy and have a good offseason

2. Johnson needs to add 5 lbs and explosiveness this offseason

OR

We need Neal back

OR

We need Faucheux to pan out

If we were that close in the LB group or secondary I’d be overjoyed
 
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