Ferguson criminal justice system

[qazplm]

So, as usual, GMM and I'm sure others, are skeptical at claims that the Ferguson PD was racist, or that the system there was biased against AAs.

So let's see what we have from the linked article (I'll even cut out the less egregious things):


• The Ferguson Court Clerk and a clerk in another city "'fixed' at least 12 tickets at each other's request.



• At the request of a Pine Lawn court administrator, the Court Clerk
recalled a warrant for a man applying for a police job in the nearby
city.

• The Court Clerk ordered police to arrest a woman after she had asked questions in court.





• A relative of the Court Clerk asked if there was anything she could
do to help out with a $200 ticket. The Court Clerk replied, "your
ticket of $200 has magically disappeared!" The incident was one of
several in which the the clerk, along with other high-ranking Ferguson
officials, assisted "friends, colleagues, acquaintances, and themselves
in eliminating citations, fines, and fees."

From another link, summing up part of the DOJ report:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/doj-ferguson-pd-report#.yxmbbpDgKp
(I'm only linking quotes from the report, not analysis from buzzfeed).

In March 2010, for instance, the City Finance Director wrote to Chief
Jackson that "unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the
end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections next
year… . Given that we are looking at a substantial sales tax shortfall,
it's not an insignificant issue." Similarly, in March 2013, the Finance Director wrote to the City
Manager: "Court fees are anticipated to rise about 7.5%. I did ask the
Chief if he thought the PD could deliver 10% increase. He indicated they
could try.""Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear
to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson's
predominantly African-American neighborhoods, less as constituents to be
protected than as potential offenders and sources of revenue."

"…at the end of fiscal year 2009, the municipal court had roughly 24,000
traffic cases and 28,000 non-traffic cases pending. As of October 31,
2014, both of those figures had roughly doubled to 53,000 and 50,000
cases, respectively. In fiscal year 2009, 16,178 new cases were filed,
and 8,727 were resolved. In 2014, by contrast, 24,256 new offenses were
filed, and 10,975 offenses were resolved."

"Ferguson uses its police department in large part as a collection
agency for its municipal court," the report found. "Ferguson's municipal
court issues arrest warrants at a rate that police officials have
called, in internal emails, 'staggering.'"

"African Americans are more than twice as likely as white drivers to be
searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race based
variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are
found in possession of contraband 26% less often than white drivers,
suggesting officers are impermissibly considering race as a factor when
determining whether to search."

This link includes all the various racist emails sent out about AAs. Which is easy to do when almost your entire force is white.

Finally (in this post, not in the report, there's tons more), there's this example/story:

…in the summer of 2012, a 32-year-old African-American man sat in his
car cooling off after playing basketball in a Ferguson public park. An
officer pulled up behind the man's car, blocking him in, and demanded
the man's Social Security number and identification.

Without any cause, the officer accused the man of being a pedophile,
referring to the presence of children in the park, and ordered the man
out of his car for a pat-down, although the officer had no reason to
believe the man was armed.

The officer also asked to search the man's car. The man objected, citing his constitutional rights.

In response, the officer arrested the man, reportedly at gunpoint,
charging him with eight violations of Ferguson's municipal code.

One charge, Making a False Declaration, was for initially providing
the short form of his first name (e.g., "Mike" instead of "Michael"),
and an address which, although legitimate, was different from the one on
his driver's license. Another charge was for not wearing a seat belt,
even though he was seated in a parked car.

The officer also charged the man both with having an expired
operator's license, and with having no operator's license in his
possession.

The man told us that, because of these charges, he lost his job as a
contractor with the federal government that he had held for years.

There's tons more at the link along with a link to the actual report if you object to buzzfeed as a source.

Fired employees

 

[indyogb]

I'm not saying they were in the right...

...but most of that seems less of a race issue and more of a general police powers abuse issue. Pretty much every city in the US has been found to use traffic citations as a way to raise funds, unfortunately (see red light cameras with shortened yellow cycles in AZ a few years back). Most police departments "fix" things for other police officers - again, it's not right, but it's not really an issue of racial preference (I have no statistics or noteworthy examples other than anecdotal instances from my own personal experiences). Maybe some of those and some of the other issues were based on racism, but I'd take your word before the word of our own Dept. of "Justice" (which I find of late to be quasi-racist in its own right, coincidentally).

One other point that stood out was the traffic stops. Wouldn't blacks be far more likely to be pulled over in Ferguson just due to demographics? As for 26% less having "contraband" - I wouldn't say the possession of contraband (or lack thereof) would be the only reason to pull someone over (traffic violations, "suspicious activity," invalid plates, etc.), so I don't know how "suggestive" that would be to "considering race a factor" in those instances, anyway.

 

[qazplm]

general police powers

that were only used against AAs.

Why is it so hard to say, ok, this was a race issue?

I don't understand...what does it take for some folks to say, ok, this was about race?

Read what I linked...this wasn't about demographics...blacks were 200% times more likely to be pulled over on suspicion of drugs even though they were 26 percent LESS likely to ACTUALLY HAVE DRUGS.

That's the opposite of demographics.

What would it take? Seriously, what would you need to see to be willing to admit this was about racism?

You know, I get it...sometimes, sometimes race is used as an excuse. JUST because SOMETIMES race is used as an excuse does not mean that you need extraordinary aliens-level proof before you admit that racism is at play.

 

[GMM]

So, as usual, GMM and I'm sure others, are skeptical at claims that the Ferguson PD was racist.....

No, I'm not skeptical. Any police force that is majority white is racist. That's why the term was invented.

....or that the system there was biased against AAs.

These kinds of "disparate impacts" happen all over the country. Now, you can believe that city after city after city, the overwhelming majority of which are run by Democrats or Democrat policies, go out of their way to harm black people. Or, you align your mind with reality and acknowledge that blacks behave differently than other groups with regards to crime.

Replace "blacks" with "men" and "whites" with "women" and then tell me why the first group is the victim of police abuse more than the second group.

 

[qazplm]

so

I'll ask you the same question...what would you have to see to believe that it really was racism against blacks?

 

[GMM]

Re: so

The same thing you'd have to see to believe that really was sexism against men.

 

[qazplm]

answer the question

it's a simple question.

Answer it.

 

[GMM]

Missouri Uniform Crime Report

Go to the link and see the data for yourself. I couldn't find a way to combine all the years' (going back to 2001) data into one report but oh well.

- Set the Report Time Frame to "Annual"

- Set the year to whatever year you want

- Set the Report Type to "Arrest - Arrest by Age, Sex, Crime with Race Totals"

- Set the Area to "Local - FERGUSON"

- Set the output format to whatever you want.

Hit "Submit" and go year by year. At the top are the more serious crimes. You'll notice that blacks are far more represented in the serious crimes. Now, you can believe that the FPD just arbitrarily decides to arrest blacks for serious crimes they didn't commit. Or, you can be sane and believe they pretty much arrest blacks for the serious crimes they actually do commit. Then, you can choose to believe that although blacks disproportionately commit serious crimes they somehow are victims of a "racist" police force in Ferguson because the cops harass them for low-level crimes for no good reason.

If your goal is instill anger and distrust amongst blacks (so they'll vote Democrat) and fear amongst whites (so they'll buy into white guilt and do what they're told) then you'd make the charges Holder and the rest of the left is making. They've been making these charges for decades. Unfortunately they've worked and the left has gained more power.

If your goal is justice and a truthful analysis of race and crime then you'll laugh at these charges. You'll also see that the only reason they issued this second report is because they're so pissed they had to issue the first report. They went hunting for a scalp and--damnit!--they're gonna get a scalp one way or the other. Which, amusingly, is exactly what they're accusing the FPD of doing to blacks.


Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Statistical Query

 

[GMM]

Re: answer the question

See the response here.

Got an answer as to why men are arrested in Ferguson more than women? C'mon, answer it!!!

 

[qazplm]

that's not remotely responsive to my question

I didn't ask, what's your argument as to why it isn't racist, I asked what would it take for you believe it is.

Let me know when you can answer the question. I figure I got another 50 years of living left.

 

[qazplm]

lol

1. Arrests. So everyone arrested is guilty yes?

2. Let's assume, just humor me, that sometimes, innocent people are arrested. I know innocent black people? Unpossible, amirite?! Humor me anyways. Some unknown percentage of people arrested are innocent.

Let's also assume that you wanted an objective looksee to tell if people were being arrested for legitimate reasons (because you know darkies be committing crimes), or they were being arrested for racial reasons, or some combination. I know you don't, but let's assume you do.

One would think you would have to look to some other metric than ARRESTS by race, you'd want to see something else. Like convictions.

Even then, you'd also want to know, how are people of different races treat for similar offenses. Does one group get larger sentences than the other for similar crimes, all other things being equal? If so, then you've got a systemic problem both in arrests and convictions. If not, then you don't because race doesn't matter.

Yet people do these kind of analysis all of the time. There's whole reams of research and studies on this.

 

[GMM]

Re: that's not remotely responsive to my question

Yeah, and you won't answer my question either.

Of course answering your question would require accepting the entirely false premise that "racist" is a universal idea that applies equally to all peoples. It doesn't but I'll play along. In order for it to be "racist" there would have to a reliable pattern over many years of blacks being disproportionately arrested for all types of crimes they didn't commit. Since that pattern doesn't exist its not "racist".

The arrest patterns in Ferguson, with regards to race and crime, pretty much fit the pattern found all over the rest of the country. Strange how these overwhelmingly Democrat-run places are so "racist". Strange how its young black men, compared to young black women or old black men or old black women, are arrested more often even though they're equally black. Strange how blacks in Ferguson are disproportionately victims of crime but that can't possibly mean blacks disproportionately commit crime.

There, that didn't take 50 years. How long should I wait for your answers?

 

[GMM]

Re: lol

Humor us and admit you won't accept any other explanation for the disproportionate rates of blacks being arrested for, convicted of, and victims of crime other than "racism".

At the same time explain why The System is less "racist" to hispanics than blacks but also more "racist" to whites than asians.

 

[qazplm]

right

so you've done a detailed, thorough analysis of the arrest patterns across the country, and determined that they fit the pattern in Ferguson.

Do tell.

So, what's the percentage of AA's arrested in Ferguson versus the average percentage of AA's arrested nationwide?
What about convictions? Those match up too?

You've clearly done the research so this should take but a moment...I'll wait.

 

[GMM]

Re: right

Finally! Gosh, I've been waiting for somebody to ask me to post a "detailed, thorough analysis" of arrest patterns with regards to race.

So, what's the percentage of AA's arrested in Ferguson versus the average percentage of AA's arrested nationwide?

Exactly the same.

What about convictions? Those match up too?

Yep.

No, I'm not surprised you didn't answer my questions.

 

[qazplm]

arrested for, convicted of, victims of

As a racist, I know you like to lump all those things together...of course, to the rest of us, that's a pretty idiotic thing to do.

Arrests are not convictions...being a victim is not an arrest or a conviction. Different pools of people with different and varied and interlocking reasons.

But you don't do complex, or varied...you do simple...real simple.

There are all sorts of reasons why blacks are arrested "disproportionately." Depends on where they are regionally, and country v city. Depends on the color tone of their skin. Lighter skin means fewer arrests. What's their education level? Depends, to some extent, on how much they make (which also goes to convictions/acquittal). Depends on they type of policing used in that area. Is it community policing? Is it broken windows? And yes, part of it is racism. One of us thinks it's complex with multitude of interlocking reasons, some outside the control of the AA community, and some of it within the control of the AA community, and one of us thinks black people are crime ridden vermin. I freely admit, your version is much, much simpler than mine.

And no, the "system" is not "less racist" to asians than whites, nor is it less racist to hispanics than blacks. What an absurdly racist claim (which you are no stranger to).

Of course, Italians, Irish, Jews...all were previously considered inherently criminal based on their heritage. so don't worry, you are part of a long history of the low end of the socioeconomic totem pool being blamed for being the low end of the totem pole, better to blame them then conduct any kind of look at "the system." And not too long ago, the Chinese were considered so as well. Your ancestors from gold rush California would laugh at your claim that the system is "less racist" to Asians.

 

[GMM]

Re: arrested for, convicted of, victims of

One of us thinks it's complex with multitude of interlocking reasons........

Which always lead to the same, simple conclusion: America is waaaaaacist!!!

There are all sorts of reasons why blacks are arrested "disproportionately."

But you won't admit the main reason. Cuz its just too darn simple and therefore too difficult to refute.

 

[qazplm]

exactly the same you say...could you be any more wrong?

Let's look at Burglarly 2011:

Ferguson: 38/41 or 93%
Missouri-wide: 2870/6721 or 43%
Nation-wide: 72,244/227,899 or 31%

Edited to break this down further:

Whites committed about 67 percent of burglaries nationwide, and are about 72 percent of the population, so it's pretty much 1 to 1 ratio. Given this fact, and that whites make up about 30 percent of the population of Ferguson, you'd think that all things being equal, whites would be at 30 percent here, again, since it's a near 1 to 1 ratio. Instead it's 7.

How about agg assault 2011?

Ferguson: 24/24 or 100%
Missouri-wide: 3253/8251 or 39%
Nation-wide: 102,597/
305,220 or 33%

Here, nationally, whites are 72 percent of the population and commit 64 percent of agg assaults. Again, near 1-1 but not quite, so you'd think in Ferguson, all things being equal, with 30 percent of the population, they'd commit oh say 20 percent of the agg assaults...certainly not 0 percent.

I know, rape! certainly that one is "exactly the same?!"

Ferguson: 0/0 or 0 % (amazingly not a single person was arrested for rape in Ferguson in 2011...how can this be, haven't you said how blacks are much more prone to raping??).
Missouri-wide: 188/393 or 48%
Nation-wide:
4,811/14,611 or 33%

Obviously, I can't do anything with zeroes across the board.

Would you like me to do the same for murder? Or heck, pick an offense.

This post was edited on 3/6 10:41 PM by qazplm

 

[qazplm]

nope

a normal, non-racist wouldn't think it leads to a simple conclusion. The conclusion is necessarily complicated and complex...unless you adopt a blacks are criminals approach of course.

 

[GMM]

Funny

First, I'm not surprised you didn't catch the sarcasm. You're obviously so worked up about this because you didn't get the scalp you were looking for. Since you can't scream "Darren Wilson is racist murderer!" you try to make it about Ferguson, MO. As if you care about what happens in Ferguson, MO.

In another post you go on and on about your wondrous abilities to see the complexities of crime, arrest, conviction, victimization, etc. Yet in this post all you do (besides exaggeration) is post raw numbers with no context. Gosh, where's your "detailed, thorough analysis" of these numbers???

...how can this be, haven't you said how blacks are much more prone
to raping??

Correction: rape statistics say that.

How much longer should I wait for you to answer my question?

 

[qazplm]

such a sad response

but really, you lied through your teeth, so what can you say?

 

[atmafola]

GMM, I am still waiting for your response to Qaz's question. What evidence to you will ever constitute sufficient proof of racisim?

By the way consistently accross the US, blacks are stopped by traffic cops at a higher rate, more likely to be given ticket than a warning, more likely to be searched and less likely than whites to have contraband on them when searched. What's amazing to me is that it doesn't matter where the data is from whether its a small random community(e.g. Ferguson, MO or DeKalb, MI) or aggregated state level data, that pattern almost always seem to emerge.

But hey GMM will add, blacks speed more and thats why they get stopped more and point to the only study to ever report that which is the New Jersey study from the late 90's (published in 2002 or so) which report that people identified as black were indeed statistically more likely to be speeding in one section of a NJ highway. But the same study also shows that in another section of the highway, there were no statistically significant differences in speeds between races. So you can read this as definitive report that blacks sped more. Or more correctly, you can see it for what it really is, that in one segment of highway over a particular period, blacks were found to have sped more. A result which is not even generalizable to the entire section of that highway, much less generalizing to the whole state of New Jersey or the entire country. On the other hand, there tons of study conducted at multiple levels showing disparities in traffic stops, traffic tickets issued, use of force during those stops, rates of search, and likelyhood of finding contrabands from those search. To each his own.

 

[GMM]

1,581 criminal justice systems in the US.......

......are, according to your "logic", more racist than Ferguson, MO. So why all the focus on Ferguson? Because the left is so butthurt over the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" hoax blowing up in their faces.


When it comes to racially lopsided arrests, the most remarkable thing about Ferguson, Mo., might be just how ordinary it is.


Police in Ferguson - which erupted into days of racially charged unrest after a white officer killed an unarmed black teen - arrest black people at a rate nearly three times higher than people of other races.


At least 1,581 other police departments across the USA arrest black people at rates even more skewed than in Ferguson, a USA TODAY analysis of arrest records shows. That includes departments in cities as large and diverse as Chicago and San Francisco and in the suburbs that encircle St. Louis, New York and Detroit.
Of course there's just no way these disparate arrest rates could have anything to do with disparate criminal behavior. The law of all holy and sacred Equality says that's not possible. Hence, the complaints about "racism".

Racial gap in U.S. arrest rates

 

[atmafola]

Well said GMM. I am willing to concede your points to you. Just humor me, lets focus on a narrower range of interactions with law enforcements - the routine traffic stop. Can you please provide proof that blacks commit stoppable offences at a rate high enough to justify the pervasive, persistent nationwide disparities in stops, searches, use of forces and carrying contrabands.

And please, I am still waiting for a response to Qaz's question. To you, what data/information would you deem sufficient enough for you to at least consider racial bias might at least be at play?

 

[GMM]

I already answered qazplm's question. I'm still waiting for an answer from you.

Just humor me, lets focus on a narrower range of interactions with law enforcements - the routine traffic stop.

Are you even aware of why you want to narrow the range? Its a desperate search for something, anything you can use to shout "racist!" at the police.

Do you ever wonder why the police would be so "racist" or why city administration after city administration would support it? It makes no logical sense to believe that The System is just out to get innocent blacks for no good reason. Young black men, compared to young black women or old black men or old black women, are the "victims" of such police abuse. Why is that? Same pattern exists for young white men, young hispanic men, young asian men. Same goes for men vs. women and young adults (18-29) vs. older adults (60+). Why is that?

That's 14 comparisons with the same reason for why one group is "harassed", arrested, and convicted more than the other group. But when it comes to blacks vs everybody else (especially whites) its proof of an unjust, biased criminal justice system.

Can you please provide proof that blacks commit stoppable offences at a
rate high enough to justify the pervasive, persistent nationwide
disparities in stops, searches, use of forces and carrying contrabands.

Why can't you do your own research? I get the impression there's nothing I could do to convince you or others that the police, all across America, aren't out on a "racist" mission to harass innocent blacks. There's a limit to how hard I'm gonna try. LIke I said, do your own research.

Attitudes like yours lead to policing tactics that result in more crime which means that, yes, blacks are more likely to be victimized by crime. But you don't care. You've defeated "racism" and that's all that matters. Attitudes like mine lead to policing tactics (like the incredibly successful ones under the Giuliani and Bloomberg administrations in NYC) that result in lower levels of crime which means that, yes, blacks benefit the most. But those tactics are called "racist" by people like you. I guess its more important for you to feed your racial virtue ego than support policies that actually work.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Anecdotes about stereotypes

Here in San Diego, I find the following to be true nearly 100% of the time:

- If someone is going ~100 in a 65, it's a black male.
- If someone is going 50 in a 65, it's a hispanic female.
- If someone has their turn signal on for six miles attempting to change lanes in traffic and will not go even when you slow down to let them in, it's a white female.
- If someone cuts me off, it's a white male. And he's probably driving a BMW.
- If someone's driving a Prius, they're white.

Totally unrelated to this thread and completely unscientific, but also completely undeniable.

 

[qazplm]

but he's not citing anecdotes

he's citing studies. Actual numbers and science.

And my anecdotes (which would be equally unscientific) would be somewhat different. Most of the poor conduct on the highway I've seen has been white men or women...but then again, I live in the part of the NOVA area that's mostly white, so what would you expect?

There are studies out there that say:

Light skinned blacks (or hispanics) not only get arrested less, they get lighter sentences for the same conduct as darker skin. Put another way, it isn't simply that whites get treated better in the CJ than minorities, it's that lighter-skinned minorities get arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced less than darker skinned minorities.

When people see lighter skinned blacks, they think they are more intelligent, less threatening, etc. (and this isn't just whites, blacks and hispanics think this way too).

And he's right, Blacks are LESS likely to have contraband, and less likely to speed statistically, but more likely to be pulled over and searched for drugs. You can't say...Blacks are more criminal in THIS area because they absolutely are not.

 

[qazplm]

but how can this be?

You told me the arrest rates were "exactly the same?"

Ferguson is worse than the national average across the board, heck it's worse than the Missouri average and I've lived there. That place is filled with people who are meth-addicted racists in between the cities and larger towns.

And you are right, we focus on Ferguson because we tell ourselves this is a small-town isolated problem...it isn't a problem endemic to police departments across the country. Thanks for making that point!

 

[qazplm]

lol no you didn't not remotely

you can't because you don't think racism against blacks is a bad thing, you think it's a good thing...you think it's a logical thing.

So of COURSE you can't and won't answer the question, the answer is, there is no situation where I think racism is bad, unless maybe it's that they can't play sports as well as whites, or can't be in a dancing competition.

 

[GMM]

Re: but how can this be?

You told me the arrest rates were "exactly the same?"

Wow, not only did you not get it the first time but even after I pointed it out you STILL don't get the joke.

And you are right, we focus on Ferguson because we tell ourselves this is a small-town isolated problem.....

No, this became a national news story because it fit the (false) Narrative that Amerikkka is out to get innocent black people for no good reason. Turns out the original story was yet another hate crime hoax. So, the focus turns to demonizing the white police in Ferguson.

.....it isn't a problem endemic to police departments across the country.

Correct, it isn't. But black crime is a problem in cities all across the country.

 

[qazplm]

lol

yes, "the joke" what happens every time someone on the internet says something exceedingly dumb.

You are a joke though, we agree again!

Poor demonized white people, my heart bleeds for you...the suffering, the despair.

 

[Purdue85]

"Hands Up ... Don't Shoot!"

meh....

the race baiting poverty pimps are destroying this country, and taking otherwise intelligent (and semi-intelligent) people with them.

The narrative falls apart, then the plan is to find some other reason to attack "whitey", the system and "the man".

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Re: but he's not citing anecdotes

My post had absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I even said so in the post. Lighten the F up.

 

[db]

Re: Missouri Uniform Crime Report

"If your goal is instill anger and distrust amongst blacks (so they'll vote Democrat) and fear amongst whites (so they'll buy into white guilt and do what they're told) ..."

You really are a piece of work.

What a warped world view.

This post was edited on 3/8 12:33 PM by db

 

[qazplm]

usually

when someone is making a joke or saying something light there's some evidence in there.

Thus, I assumed you were making a serious point in response, and made one as well. I didn't call you stupid or a name, or attack you in any way, so seems to me like I'm not the one who needs to lighten the F up.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Re: usually

"Totally unrelated to this thread and completely unscientific, but also completely undeniable."

What part of that did you not understand? Good grief.