DH 2 and his termination

[TwinDegrees2]

Folks, as much as I want to talk about telling everyone DH wasn't the right hire back when it happened, I won't.

What I will say is that he's not going anywhere until the end of the season. MB 2 isn't going pull the plug with less than two games to go in the season, because he's simply not. He's the new guy, and to do it now would send a lot of wrong messages to a lot of people including other coaches.

First, he's got to have someone to bring to PU when DH gets canned, and even though a lot of folks are screaming for LSU Les, look at what happened the past few years at LSU and ask if you really think Les is what will cure the Boiler ill's.

PU isn't going to shell out Les money because of the buyout cost to rid the locker room of DH and his staff....and the entire staff has to go if DH goes. Purdue will once again go after that mid-pack coach hoping for a home run.

So, hope for the best, expect the worst, and be patient.

 

[pboiler18]

Mid pack hire will cost us $3mil at least and the only guy I see who could transform us right now in that group is Fleck.

I'm cool with paying the next guy big moneybif he's a big name and big results type. That said, Les Miles would be a disaster.

 

[bonefish1]

I don't think you can't afford not to fire Hazell....today. The alumni base, the student body, hell, even his own players have quit on him.
Keeping him around serves no purpose.
Other coaches know the game and they're not going to be scared off because someone who couldn't get the job done is fired mid-season. Most competent coaches would probably agree it's the right move, especially if it's going to happen the day after the season ends anyway.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I don't think you can't afford not to fire Hazell....today. The alumni base, the student body, hell, even his own players have quit on him.
Keeping him around serves no purpose.
Other coaches know the game and they're not going to be scared off because someone who couldn't get the job done is fired mid-season. Most competent coaches would probably agree it's the right move, especially if it's going to happen the day after the season ends anyway.

Exactly my feelings as well. The cost of the buyout is a sunk cost...in that it is going to cost the same now or after the season. What needs to occur now is creating a list of positives and negatives associated with keeping Hazell or firing him now. IMO, and I think most in general, would agree there are no positives to keeping him around as a lame duck coach at this point. If his message wasn't falling on deaf ears, it certainly will now after the beat down that Maryland gave them. I have no confidence in any form that Purdue will compete with Illinois.

Mr. Bobinski, the time is now for you to show your ability to lead and to create change in a program that has become an embarrassment.

 

[FirstDownB]

What needs to occur now is creating a list of positives and negatives associated with keeping Hazell or firing him now. IMO, and I think most in general, would agree there are no positives to keeping him around as a lame duck coach at this point.

Agree with the approach. Disagree with the conclusion. Waiting until the new coach can be hired to fire DH2 has less to do with sending a message and more to do with the player personnel going forward.

We have 14 players committed for 2017, 6 of which have P5 offers. For whatever reason they did decide to play for DH2.. And say what you will about DH2, but he has mostly recruited "well enough" for a successor to come in and at least have a chance to win a few games. With a little more depth, better schemes, and much better player development, this thing could start turning around in a couple years. But to tank the 2017 class sets back the rebuild at least another year.

Now we know from experience some of these recruits are going to decommit regardless, but to minimize that you ideally want the new coach contacting them the day DH2 is fired. Think Danny Etling. No, he didn't work out here in the end (no one has under this coach), but he was a 4 star player who probably would've decommited if months went by without his future coach to come talk him into staying committed.

Between the returning players and these recruits they are all the next coach will have to work with. You can brush off the quality of the class, but no coach is going to come in starting December (or January if they coach a bowl game) and get anything better. Nothing more than JuCo's and non P5 caliber players. And see our offensive tackle situation if you don't think depth, even mediocre/average depth, is vital. It can get worse.

By comparison, the benefits of firing now, though emotionally satisfying, are less tangible.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Agree with the approach. Disagree with the conclusion. Waiting until the new coach can be hired to fire DH2 has less to do with sending a message and more to do with the player personnel going forward.

We have 14 players committed for 2017, 6 of which have P5 offers. For whatever reason they did decide to play for DH2.. And say what you will about DH2, but he has mostly recruited "well enough" for a successor to come in and at least have a chance to win a few games. With a little more depth, better schemes, and much better player development, this thing could start turning around in a couple years. But to tank the 2017 class sets back the rebuild at least another year.

Now we know from experience some of these recruits are going to decommit regardless, but to minimize that you ideally want the new coach contacting them the day DH2 is fired. Think Danny Etling. No, he didn't work out here in the end (no one has under this coach), but he was a 4 star player who probably would've decommited if months went by without his future coach to come talk him into staying committed.

Between the returning players and these recruits they are all the next coach will have to work with. You can brush off the quality of the class, but no coach is going to come in starting December (or January if they coach a bowl game) and get anything better. Nothing more than JuCo's and non P5 caliber players. And see our offensive tackle situation if you don't think depth, even mediocre/average depth, is vital. It can get worse.

By comparison, the benefits of firing now, though emotionally satisfying, are less tangible.

Very well thought out and a great response.

 

[tigerchump]

Folks, as much as I want to talk about telling everyone DH wasn't the right hire back when it happened, I won't.

What I will say is that he's not going anywhere until the end of the season. MB 2 isn't going pull the plug with less than two games to go in the season, because he's simply not. He's the new guy, and to do it now would send a lot of wrong messages to a lot of people including other coaches.

First, he's got to have someone to bring to PU when DH gets canned, and even though a lot of folks are screaming for LSU Les, look at what happened the past few years at LSU and ask if you really think Les is what will cure the Boiler ill's.

PU isn't going to shell out Les money because of the buyout cost to rid the locker room of DH and his staff....and the entire staff has to go if DH goes. Purdue will once again go after that mid-pack coach hoping for a home run.

So, hope for the best, expect the worst, and be patient.

I think you are right.But I am soooo unhappy with Purdue football right now.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Agree with the approach. Disagree with the conclusion. Waiting until the new coach can be hired to fire DH2 has less to do with sending a message and more to do with the player personnel going forward.

We have 14 players committed for 2017, 6 of which have P5 offers. For whatever reason they did decide to play for DH2.. And say what you will about DH2, but he has mostly recruited "well enough" for a successor to come in and at least have a chance to win a few games. With a little more depth, better schemes, and much better player development, this thing could start turning around in a couple years. But to tank the 2017 class sets back the rebuild at least another year.

Now we know from experience some of these recruits are going to decommit regardless, but to minimize that you ideally want the new coach contacting them the day DH2 is fired. Think Danny Etling. No, he didn't work out here in the end (no one has under this coach), but he was a 4 star player who probably would've decommited if months went by without his future coach to come talk him into staying committed.

Between the returning players and these recruits they are all the next coach will have to work with. You can brush off the quality of the class, but no coach is going to come in starting December (or January if they coach a bowl game) and get anything better. Nothing more than JuCo's and non P5 caliber players. And see our offensive tackle situation if you don't think depth, even mediocre/average depth, is vital. It can get worse.

By comparison, the benefits of firing now, though emotionally satisfying, are less tangible.

You don't take in to account a coaches ability to then re-recruit those players later (if he is in fact a name coach who can pull in other players) and if they had established relationships with other recruits.

For example, WMU 8 3 star prospects and a number of other 2 star prospects. I am guessing that going to Purdue, Fleck would be able to bring some of those recruits with him along with being able to sell Purdue to other more notable recruits that he was in contact with who went elsewhere. A known recruiting ace can makeup ground with those abilities. Besides, the amount of youth on the roster leads more to a want for development to lead to quicker success rather than recruiting, IMO.

 

[bonefish1]

All these recruits know DH will not be their head coach next year at Purdue. If they don't know that, they're incredibly naïve. I'm sure the other schools that were recruiting them are already in communication telling them the same thing.
Keeping DH until the end of the year does nothing for the program.
Firing him today would show that MBob is serious about getting the program turned around.

If by some miracle, lets say DH wins 3 B10 games this year. Do you keep him around next year? Hell no!

 

[FirstDownB]

You don't take in to account a coaches ability to then re-recruit those players later (if he is in fact a name coach who can pull in other players) and if they had established relationships with other recruits.

For example, WMU 8 3 star prospects and a number of other 2 star prospects. I am guessing that going to Purdue, Fleck would be able to bring some of those recruits with him along with being able to sell Purdue to other more notable recruits that he was in contact with who went elsewhere. A known recruiting ace can makeup ground with those abilities. Besides, the amount of youth on the roster leads more to a want for development to lead to quicker success rather than recruiting, IMO.

There is potential for some of that. But what if you can't get Fleck? What if the best available option is a coordinator from Texas or OSU? How many recruits is he bringing with him or flipping? A bird in the hand..

 

[TC4THREE]

Folks, as much as I want to talk about telling everyone DH wasn't the right hire back when it happened, I won't.

What I will say is that he's not going anywhere until the end of the season. MB 2 isn't going pull the plug with less than two games to go in the season, because he's simply not. He's the new guy, and to do it now would send a lot of wrong messages to a lot of people including other coaches.

First, he's got to have someone to bring to PU when DH gets canned, and even though a lot of folks are screaming for LSU Les, look at what happened the past few years at LSU and ask if you really think Les is what will cure the Boiler ill's.

PU isn't going to shell out Les money because of the buyout cost to rid the locker room of DH and his staff....and the entire staff has to go if DH goes. Purdue will once again go after that mid-pack coach hoping for a home run.

So, hope for the best, expect the worst, and be patient.

I think there's something to be said for giving the coach every opportunity to succeed/fail on his own this season as well. You don't want your first move as AD to be reactionary to a bad loss. The fact of the matter is that we are 2-2 this season and have won the two games we were expected to win and lost the two games we were expected to lose. Somewhere along the line we're going to have to win some conference games we're not going to be expected to win but I don't know why we have to say Maryland was that game. We don't even really know how good Maryland is/isn't at this point. Who knows? Maybe they go on to win 10 games this year.

I think you give him the Illinois game. After that there is homecoming. If we look horrible at Illinois then you evaluate whether or not it's good for the program for him to be coaching in front of a potentially hostile homecoming crowd against Iowa.

 

[TC4THREE]

Firing him today would show that MBob is serious about getting the program turned around.

No it doesn't. It does absolutely nothing other than appease some fans. It does not aid in turning the program around whatsoever for him to do that today.

 

[FirstDownB]

All these recruits know DH will not be their head coach next year at Purdue. If they don't know that, they're incredibly naïve. I'm sure the other schools that were recruiting them are already in communication telling them the same thing.
Keeping DH until the end of the year does nothing for the program.
Firing him today would show that MBob is serious about getting the program turned around.

If by some miracle, lets say DH wins 3 B10 games this year. Do you keep him around next year? Hell no!

Firing him today would show that MBob is serious about getting the program turned around.
Firing him in 2 months would also show that MBob is serious about getting the program turned around.
The end result is the same. I suppose the difference is for the next 2 months it would be a question. Are you really that scared of DH2 winning enough between now and then to keep his job? If not what tangible difference does it make other than a few angry emails and message board posts? Unless our next coach is named Miles or Briles there is unfortunately nothing to be gained. I really, truly wish there was.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I think there's something to be said for giving the coach every opportunity to succeed/fail on his own this season as well. You don't want your first move as AD to be reactionary to a bad loss. The fact of the matter is that we are 2-2 this season and have won the two games we were expected to win and lost the two games we were expected to lose. Somewhere along the line we're going to have to win some conference games we're not going to be expected to win but I don't know why we have to say Maryland was that game. We don't even really know how good Maryland is/isn't at this point. Who knows? Maybe they go on to win 10 games this year.

I think you give him the Illinois game. After that there is homecoming. If we look horrible at Illinois then you evaluate whether or not it's good for the program for him to be coaching in front of a potentially hostile homecoming crowd against Iowa.

That's reasonable. We should be able to compete against Illinois. If not...

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I think there's something to be said for giving the coach every opportunity to succeed/fail on his own this season as well. You don't want your first move as AD to be reactionary to a bad loss. The fact of the matter is that we are 2-2 this season and have won the two games we were expected to win and lost the two games we were expected to lose. Somewhere along the line we're going to have to win some conference games we're not going to be expected to win but I don't know why we have to say Maryland was that game. We don't even really know how good Maryland is/isn't at this point. Who knows? Maybe they go on to win 10 games this year.

I think you give him the Illinois game. After that there is homecoming. If we look horrible at Illinois then you evaluate whether or not it's good for the program for him to be coaching in front of a potentially hostile homecoming crowd against Iowa.

Reactionary to a bad loss:

2013:
@ Cinncy 42 - 7
NIU : 55 - 24
Nebraska: 44- 7
OSU: 56 - 0
@ PSU: 45 - 21
@ IU: 56 - 36

2014:
Central Michigan: 38 - 17
@ Nebraska: 35 - 14
Wisconsin: 34 - 16
Northwestern: 38 - 14
@ IU: 23 - 16

2015:
@ Marshall: 41 - 31
VT: 51 - 24
Minny: 41 - 13
Illini: 48 - 14
@ Iowa: 40 - 20
IU: 54 - 36

2016:
Cinncy: 38 - 20
@ Maryland: 50 - 7

Also, the total amount of points scored during DH2's tenure:
2013: PU 179 Opp 425
2014: PU 286 Opp 380
2015: PU 277 Opp 438
2016: PU 96 Opp 118

Total: PU 838 Opp 1361

Avr/gm: PU 20.95 Opp 34.03
On average, Purdue is being outscored by 2 TD's per game.

I think firing would not be a brash reaction to a single bad loss. Any AD has the resources to discuss with other entities in the department to gauge their feelings about those losses along with available video tape to decipher how the game looked. A good AD would spend days pouring over these videos with some one else (if they themselves want a second opinion) of how the program looks. You could easily gauge from there that this isn't just one bad loss but a string that has followed DH2 his entire coaching career at Purdue.

 

[djnykwil22]

8-32 guys. Need I remind you all he is 8-32. Why are we even questioning if he is fired or whether we should fire him now or later. What he has done to the program set it back 5 years. This will not be an easy turn around.

Pretend you work in the food service industry like myself. Pretend you see a manger who only makes product the right way 25% of the time. Sales are at an all time low, customer retention is out the door, and the entire staff is defective(our players). What do you do?

From my experience you cut bait. And you don't just stop at the managers...who are broken beyond belief. You have to gut the entire staff. By the entire staff I mean that you cannot worry nor take into account the feelings of current players. They should be able to understand that their manager did not give them the proper training.

Long story short I can for sure 100% see your guys' side on this argument. It is very sound and very logical. It makes sense to me, and in all likelihood the route PURDUE will take, but there is something in me that screams "he's 8-32. Do we need to put him in front of a hostile crowd at home. "

Things could get very chippy there. I just can't see myself, even at the most basic form of management around, keeping him around. It does 0 for Purdue, and is almost borderline dangerous for Hazell himself

 

[PaBoiler78]

Reactionary to a bad loss:

2013:
@ Cinncy 42 - 7
NIU : 55 - 24
Nebraska: 44- 7
OSU: 56 - 0
@ PSU: 45 - 21
@ IU: 56 - 36

2014:
Central Michigan: 38 - 17
@ Nebraska: 35 - 14
Wisconsin: 34 - 16
Northwestern: 38 - 14
@ IU: 23 - 16

2015:
@ Marshall: 41 - 31
VT: 51 - 24
Minny: 41 - 13
Illini: 48 - 14
@ Iowa: 40 - 20
IU: 54 - 36

2016:
Cinncy: 38 - 20
@ Maryland: 50 - 7

Also, the total amount of points scored during DH2's tenure:
2013: PU 179 Opp 425
2014: PU 286 Opp 380
2015: PU 277 Opp 438
2016: PU 96 Opp 118

Total: PU 838 Opp 1361

Avr/gm: PU 20.95 Opp 34.03
On average, Purdue is being outscored by 2 TD's per game.

I think firing would not be a brash reaction to a single bad loss. Any AD has the resources to discuss with other entities in the department to gauge their feelings about those losses along with available video tape to decipher how the game looked. A good AD would spend days pouring over these videos with some one else (if they themselves want a second opinion) of how the program looks. You could easily gauge from there that this isn't just one bad loss but a string that has followed DH2 his entire coaching career at Purdue.

once again this week is crucial to see if we have any fight, if we lose bad this week that'll be strike two, then at a lowly attended Iowa HC game, if we get pounded that'll be strike 3 and then MB2 pulls the plug. I'm also for hiring P J Fleck and I also like what Matt Rhule is doing.

 

[tigerchump]

8-32 guys. Need I remind you all he is 8-32. Why are we even questioning if he is fired or whether we should fire him now or later. What he has done to the program set it back 5 years. This will not be an easy turn around.

Pretend you work in the food service industry like myself. Pretend you see a manger who only makes product the right way 25% of the time. Sales are at an all time low, customer retention is out the door, and the entire staff is defective(our players). What do you do?

From my experience you cut bait. And you don't just stop at the managers...who are broken beyond belief. You have to gut the entire staff. By the entire staff I mean that you cannot worry nor take into account the feelings of current players. They should be able to understand that their manager did not give them the proper training.

Long story short I can for sure 100% see your guys' side on this argument. It is very sound and very logical. It makes sense to me, and in all likelihood the route PURDUE will take, but there is something in me that screams "he's 8-32. Do we need to put him in front of a hostile crowd at home. "

Things could get very chippy there. I just can't see myself, even at the most basic form of management around, keeping him around. It does 0 for Purdue, and is almost borderline dangerous for Hazell himself

Good post.It makes no sense to me to keep DH another day,as these players cant have much fight left in them.

 

[DG10]

No it doesn't. It does absolutely nothing other than appease some fans. It does not aid in turning the program around whatsoever for him to do that today.

Sure it does...it prevents even further damage from being done, and if he is allowed to stay, further damage will be done.

There is absolutely no reason at all to retain him...none...the mere fact that the guy does not have the courage and integrity to do the right thing himself and resign is even more of a reason to let him go now...no way he should have the satisfaction of being able to spew his nonsense on a weekly basis to media, fans, players, and potential recruits while collecting a paycheck despite not doing his job at all.

I lost respect for him as a coach a long time ago...and I think that rings true with a lot of fans, media and even players...I have lost respect for him as a person the longer he lets this all play out simply for his own financial benefit.

 

[TC4THREE]

Sure it does...it prevents even further damage from being done, and if he is allowed to stay, further damage will be done.

Please elaborate. I don't see it. The way I see it, the rest of the season is going to play out the way it is going to play out with or without him. Significant change wouldn't occur until a new coach is named which won't happen until after the season. I don't see any tangible benefit or potential harm.

 

[DG10]

I think there's something to be said for giving the coach every opportunity to succeed/fail on his own this season as well. You don't want your first move as AD to be reactionary to a bad loss. The fact of the matter is that we are 2-2 this season and have won the two games we were expected to win and lost the two games we were expected to lose. Somewhere along the line we're going to have to win some conference games we're not going to be expected to win but I don't know why we have to say Maryland was that game. We don't even really know how good Maryland is/isn't at this point. Who knows? Maybe they go on to win 10 games this year.

I think you give him the Illinois game. After that there is homecoming. If we look horrible at Illinois then you evaluate whether or not it's good for the program for him to be coaching in front of a potentially hostile homecoming crowd against Iowa.

Reactionary to A bad loss?

The guy has a list of bad losses...it started in his first year leading the program and persists, and it will...the guy has more bad losses on his resume than any other coach ever at Purdue...he is literally the worst coach in the history of the program, which is saying something, as there have been some really bad coaches.

Win some conference games that "we" are not expected to win? That would be any of them...literally, any of them...and even if they won, it means next to nothing...the guy has proven over and over and over that he is in way over his head on the field and off.

Name a game that Purdue did not look horrible in during the Hazell reign...even in the very few games that they have won, they hardly looked good...but I am hard pressed to think of even a few games that they looked even marginally competent.

 

[DG10]

Please elaborate. I don't see it. The way I see it, the rest of the season is going to play out the way it is going to play out with or without him. Significant change wouldn't occur until a new coach is named which won't happen until after the season. I don't see any tangible benefit or potential harm.

Not necessarily...in any number of ways.

They may win a game that they would not have simply by him not being there...the guy himself is incompetent, so his simply not being there may be enough to make a difference.

What if he plays someone that he should not in the interest of trying to win a meaningless game?

What if guys decide to transfer because of his being retained...guys that either don't get an opportunity that they feel that they should have (and that has happened numerous times with Hazell where guys that should have been on the field seemingly were not), or a guy that is replaced and should not have been (easiest example being Blough)?

What if he adds more recruits that are not capable of playing at this level? What if he drives off potential recruits by either not pursuing them and turning them sour on Purdue, or, by consciously not recruiting them even?

How the season plays out with him as the HC and without him as the HC could be significantly different simply for the fact that he is there opposed to he is not.

He is not coming back...and there is no benefit at all to retaining him...that alone is reason enough to fire him and move on now.

 

[TC4THREE]

Reactionary to A bad loss?

If one more bad loss is enough for you to jettison your coach then you probably shouldn't have kept him to start the next season to begin with. I'm fully aware than many here think that should be the case but that doesn't change the fact that we kept him so I think getting rid of him while is record is still at .500 for this season isn't the wisest thing to do.

 

[FearTheTrain]

All offseason, I thought he deserved a chance to get to 7 wins this year (partially because of the higher buy out).

I cannot see one reason for keeping him after the debacle that took place on Saturday. I do like some members of this class, but they all know he is on the hot seat and committed for other reasons. That team was unprepared and uninterested. I don't blame any of our talented players for wanting to transfer out of this program.

What's the point of keeping him? Is it to give him the chance to beat a bad Illinois team and maybe pull off another upset? I don't get what that does. We most likely will lose by 30+ again to an even worse team.

 

[TC4THREE]

All offseason, I thought he deserved a chance to get to 7 wins this year (partially because of the higher buy out).

I don't get the change. If you thought he deserved the chance to try to get to 7 wins this year, why would you get rid of him at 2-2? If we are as bad as you think, we won't get there but I think the wisest thing to do is let him either prove you right or wrong.

 

[FearTheTrain]

I was at the game and saw how unprepared and disinterested our team was up-close. The talent level between the two teams is not significantly different. MD was prepared, had a solid game plan, and executed. I didn't expect us to win this game, but I figured it would still be somewhat competitive in the second half.

You're completely right that we are 2-2 and have a chance to be 3-2. There will not be many wins after that. I'd like to see someone else have a chance with this roster because we actually have some playmakers on offense and two great players on defense. Will your opinion change if we get blasted by the Illini? What do you think should happen if we beat Illinois and come up with a win against PSU, but lose every other game? I don't see many scenarios where it benefits us to keep him all season.