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Critics

Apr 12, 2012
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I grow a little weary of all the critics on this board. I would suggest that before anybody criticize Matt Painter, they should list their own coaching experience, at what level they coached, what their record was, and how many championships they won.

My son is now a sophomore in college and I coached him and his friends at multiple levels throughout his childhood. I was good Indiana high school player. I was the most valuable player in my conference, averaged 18 points as a senior and for 30 years held the all-time assist record at my high school. I had a fairly good grasp of basketball. It turns out I was mostly clueless as a coach - although I did get better as I did it more.

How many of you have ever actually tried to communicate a basketball truth to a kid? First, you must make them understand the concept. Then, you have to make sure they have the physical skills to put the concept into practice. Then, you have to get them to remember to do it scrimmage. Then, you have to make sure they remember to do today what you told them yesterday. Finally, and most difficultly, you need to try to make them remember in the game situation, while hundreds of other things are going through their minds, to do what you told them to do.

As an example, I tried to emphasize the importance of taking care of the ball and eliminating turnovers. But I distinctly remember games where I thought, "An outsider watching this game might conclude that this stupid coach never even mentioned that turnovers were a bad thing." My boys would often do the exact opposite of what I had told them repeatedly. The skill of effectively communicating truth is a very difficult skill to master and is very rare.

Coaching is really hard. It is very rare indeed to find the specific combination of intelligence, humor, communication, sales skills, rigor, discipline, and a host of other skills required to generate a coach of the caliber of Wooden,Knight, Krzyzewski, and so on.

Purdue is an engineering school, so you might think the members of this board would understand the bell curve. Hall of Fame Division 1 coaches probably fall somewhere around 99.9999% on the bell curve of college basketball coaches in their specific mix of skills. Very good coaches might drop a few decimals and be just at the 99.9% level.

I was heart-broken & frustrated to see Purdue lose to Little Rock. It really does sap much joy from the entire tournament. But I don't conclude that I could have done better. And I don't conclude that there are a ton of other coaches that could have done better also.

I think Painter is a very good coach. I think he may be capable of taking Purdue to a final four someday. If so, then he is a very rare person indeed.

In my mind, the chances that another coach who would take the job would be better than him is significantly less than 50%. That is, I suspect that the chances of hiring a coach that is better than Painter is probably in the 10-20% range. It's painful to lose, but many many teams are going through that same pain right now. This is not unique to Purdue.

Please don't criticize about things that you don't understand and have never attempted.
 
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People don't have to be coaches to criticize coaches. I've never been president but I that doesn't mean I can't criticize the president when he make a stupid decision. I've never run for office but that doesn't mean I can't criticize Donald Trump when he says crazy things.
 
I agree with the OP that hiring a replacement is far from a guarantee we will find someone that is more successful than CMP. In fact on another thread I asked critics of CMP to list specific coaches they would like to see PU hire. So far it has been a pretty uninspiring list. Either the person already makes more than CMP or have just signed a new contract at their current school or in the one case the coach is 70 years old.

All that said, I disagree with the OP that you have to have been a D1 college coach in order to have any criticism of a current coach. That is a very tired argument that many ex jocks/coaches make. "If you never played the game at this level you have no idea". It simply isn't true. In fact many of the arguments people have made have been verified by Painter himself. He admitted after the LR game that he made mistakes including not fouling on the last possession of regulation. So simply being critical isn't wrong. IMHO where it goes sideways is when it gets very personal or aggressive. We love our school (at least most on here do) and we take a certain pride in how well our school performs especially on the big stage. So it is natural to get emotional and upset when they don't perform as we had hoped. It just doesn't need to rise to the level that it does on here sometimes.

X2 on the humble brag. Could have left the Glory Days reference out of your argument.
 
The OP has some pretty valid points. However, I grow tired of the self righteous crap and higher than thou line as if they are the only one capable of understanding a final score or seeing what success looks like overall. I don't need a pilots license to know when a plane goes down, something is wrong. LOL. I also get that another coach quite possibly would be worse, see Football in West Laffy. I'll give Hazell 2 more years to sort that mess out as IMO football is harder to turn around. But, you can't be scared to open the "green door" and try to get better. I'd rather try to improve and fail than except mediocrity. JMHO
 
People don't have to be coaches to criticize coaches. I've never been president but I that doesn't mean I can't criticize the president when he make a stupid decision. I've never run for office but that doesn't mean I can't criticize Donald Trump when he says crazy things.

Everyone is an expert at criticizing. By far the easiest thing to do.
 
I'll give Hazell 2 more years to sort that mess out as IMO football is harder to turn around.

This is crazy talk. If you take a look at the football program and conclude that Hazell needs more time (2 years?!) and then look at the basketball program and conclude that Painter needs to go then I don't think I can lend any credence to that opinion. The only reason Hazell is still at Purdue is because it's too expensive to buy him out and getting rid of him would be an admission of failure by Burke.
 
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This is crazy talk. If you take a look at the football program and conclude that Hazell needs more time (2 years?!) and then look at the basketball program and conclude that Painter needs to go then I don't think I can lend any credence to that opinion. The only reason Hazell is still at Purdue is because it's too expensive to buy him out and getting rid of him would be an admission of failure by Burke.
That is just how he is. Coherent thinking is not in his arsenal of capabilities.
 
Everyone is an expert at criticizing. By far the easiest thing to do.
Of course its easy but that was not the topic of this thread and is an over-simplification of the issue. The issue is whether you need to have previous head coaching experience to be able to identify and communicate coaching errors. My opinion is that you do not.
 
I agree with the OP that hiring a replacement is far from a guarantee we will find someone that is more successful than CMP. In fact on another thread I asked critics of CMP to list specific coaches they would like to see PU hire. So far it has been a pretty uninspiring list. Either the person already makes more than CMP or have just signed a new contract at their current school or in the one case the coach is 70 years old.

All that said, I disagree with the OP that you have to have been a D1 college coach in order to have any criticism of a current coach. That is a very tired argument that many ex jocks/coaches make. "If you never played the game at this level you have no idea". It simply isn't true. In fact many of the arguments people have made have been verified by Painter himself. He admitted after the LR game that he made mistakes including not fouling on the last possession of regulation. So simply being critical isn't wrong. IMHO where it goes sideways is when it gets very personal or aggressive. We love our school (at least most on here do) and we take a certain pride in how well our school performs especially on the big stage. So it is natural to get emotional and upset when they don't perform as we had hoped. It just doesn't need to rise to the level that it does on here sometimes.

X2 on the humble brag. Could have left the Glory Days reference out of your argument.

Just curious...if Painter's name appeared on some other board for a name to consider, do you believe that most elsewhere at a high major/Power 5 program would deem his choice "inspiring"?

Pittsburgh just let (helped) what was by Purdue standards a tremendously successful coach walk out the door...then promptly missed out on its first two identified candidates, while TCU found him incredibly inspiring to the tune of more than $3m (and more than Painter is collecting). That said, Pitt has made it clear that money is not an issue in their search for a replacement...something never uttered (or likely to be) from anyone at Purdue.

Could Purdue do worse? For certain. Could Purdue do better? Absolutely. The latter is unlikely, as Purdue as a University is not committed to doing better, but it certainly could if it were. No guarantee admittedly...but, the Purdue mentality almost always is that the status quo is the best course of action, because what if it somehow got worse (never mind it has/did/is in football...but not because a change was made...but because of who handled said change...and, again, because Purdue as a University is not committed to being successful).

It has been 36 years now since Purdue last appeared in a Final Four...led there by a guy who was at the school as the Head Coach for a mere two years...two incredibly successful ones, and parlayed it into the incredible South Florida Head Coaching job. In that time, every other member that was a member of the conference at that time, other than Iowa and Northwestern, has appeared in at least one Final Four.

As to the point of being able to be critical of Painter...the OP was dead wrong, simple as that.

Good coaches understand what makes their teams good...knows (better than anyone) its strengths and weaknesses...more importantly, plays to said strengths and stays away from said weaknesses, or minimizes them by devising ways in which to do so. A good coach does not entirely change its course of direction in what is the most important game of said season, as Painter did against UALR. They don't panic, as Painter did/does. They provide leadership and composure, especially when the guys on the floor are not doing so (or capable of doing so)...Painter has not/does not. It does not take me not having been a coach at Purdue, or any other B1G school, to recognize that...I think the casual fan gets that...never mind anyone that actually follows the game closely.

Painter just took a team...the deepest team perhaps ever at Purdue, and certainly during his time there...a talented team...a team with four potential professional players...a team that had experience...that did not have any injury issues...or "bad apples"...and not only lost to a team that it was far better than and far more talented than, it blew a 14-point lead in less than 4 minutes. That was on the heels of having blown a 7-point lead in less than a minute a year ago in the first round of the NCAA tournament. It blew a lead in the exact same fashion that it had in at least four games previously just this season...the exact same fashion. No need to have coached high DI basketball to not recognize that, as the person that did that, and by the OPs assertion should understand that and have addressed it, did not.

At Purdue, whether it was Keady or is Painter, while the players and names change, the results and issues remain the same unfortunately...and there is little to no reason to expect that to change, which is even more unfortunate.
 
Of course its easy but that was not the topic of this thread and is an over-simplification of the issue. The issue is whether you need to have previous head coaching experience to be able to identify and communicate coaching errors. My opinion is that you do not.
How about criticizing open heart surgery that failed? Or about criticizing a sales presentation that didn't get the sale? Or Managing a production line that does not meet goals?
 
I think your knowledge of basketball prevents you to see the top level pictures. I don't have to know much basketball to realize the record isn't outstanding. Don't forget this.. criticism actually help people to grow and drive them to success because you also think how to get better.

We get to sweet 16 twice, period. I don't have to be a basketball coach to know this is not great.
 
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Of course its easy but that was not the topic of this thread and is an over-simplification of the issue. The issue is whether you need to have previous head coaching experience to be able to identify and communicate coaching errors. My opinion is that you do not.

It certainly helps to have some sort of an idea what the process is like.
 
I think your knowledge of basketball prevents you to see the top level pictures. I don't have to know much basketball to realize the record isn't outstanding. Don't forget this.. criticism actually help people to grow and drive them to success because you also think how to get better.

We get to sweet 16 twice, period. I don't have to be a basketball coach to know this is not great.
You just proved the OP's point with this ridiculous post.
 
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Liu Kang, if you argue like this in our company, you would get fired already. You don't make any excuse for your low performance.
 
Just curious...if Painter's name appeared on some other board for a name to consider, do you believe that most elsewhere at a high major/Power 5 program would deem his choice "inspiring"?

Pittsburgh just let (helped) what was by Purdue standards a tremendously successful coach walk out the door...then promptly missed out on its first two identified candidates, while TCU found him incredibly inspiring to the tune of more than $3m (and more than Painter is collecting). That said, Pitt has made it clear that money is not an issue in their search for a replacement...something never uttered (or likely to be) from anyone at Purdue.

Could Purdue do worse? For certain. Could Purdue do better? Absolutely. The latter is unlikely, as Purdue as a University is not committed to doing better, but it certainly could if it were. No guarantee admittedly...but, the Purdue mentality almost always is that the status quo is the best course of action, because what if it somehow got worse (never mind it has/did/is in football...but not because a change was made...but because of who handled said change...and, again, because Purdue as a University is not committed to being successful).

It has been 36 years now since Purdue last appeared in a Final Four...led there by a guy who was at the school as the Head Coach for a mere two years...two incredibly successful ones, and parlayed it into the incredible South Florida Head Coaching job. In that time, every other member that was a member of the conference at that time, other than Iowa and Northwestern, has appeared in at least one Final Four.

As to the point of being able to be critical of Painter...the OP was dead wrong, simple as that.

Good coaches understand what makes their teams good...knows (better than anyone) its strengths and weaknesses...more importantly, plays to said strengths and stays away from said weaknesses, or minimizes them by devising ways in which to do so. A good coach does not entirely change its course of direction in what is the most important game of said season, as Painter did against UALR. They don't panic, as Painter did/does. They provide leadership and composure, especially when the guys on the floor are not doing so (or capable of doing so)...Painter has not/does not. It does not take me not having been a coach at Purdue, or any other B1G school, to recognize that...I think the casual fan gets that...never mind anyone that actually follows the game closely.

Painter just took a team...the deepest team perhaps ever at Purdue, and certainly during his time there...a talented team...a team with four potential professional players...a team that had experience...that did not have any injury issues...or "bad apples"...and not only lost to a team that it was far better than and far more talented than, it blew a 14-point lead in less than 4 minutes. That was on the heels of having blown a 7-point lead in less than a minute a year ago in the first round of the NCAA tournament. It blew a lead in the exact same fashion that it had in at least four games previously just this season...the exact same fashion. No need to have coached high DI basketball to not recognize that, as the person that did that, and by the OPs assertion should understand that and have addressed it, did not.

At Purdue, whether it was Keady or is Painter, while the players and names change, the results and issues remain the same unfortunately...and there is little to no reason to expect that to change, which is even more unfortunate.
I'm not sure what you are saying, We should replace Painter because we could for sure find someone better, or we shouldn't? You lost me with the Pitt situation. They let Dixon go and whiffed on their first two choices. Was that a good decision or bad?
 
Liu Kang, if you argue like this in our company, you would get fired already. You don't make any excuse for your low performance.

:rolleyes:

Nobody is excusing low performance. You just don't understand what that is apparently.
 
Of course its easy but that was not the topic of this thread and is an over-simplification of the issue. The issue is whether you need to have previous head coaching experience to be able to identify and communicate coaching errors. My opinion is that you do not.
When people post statements like "Player A should not have taken that last shot", "Player B should not be on scholarship", or "This team will not win unless they play zone", then it's fair to question their coaching credentials. To say that "anybody can see it, it's obvious", is just plain silly. How can you not laugh at people on this board who talk as if they could coach this team better than MP?
 
I guess you will never know what is.

I certainly know what it's not. You aren't the only one that works in a successful business environment. We set goals high as well and "low performance" isn't defined as someone that fell short of the top goal. If everyone achieves all of their goals, that means you aren't setting them high enough. Hitting 80% of your goals can often be a good year depending on circumstances and environment. We're not going to fire someone who aimed high and fell a bit short.
 
Just curious...if Painter's name appeared on some other board for a name to consider, do you believe that most elsewhere at a high major/Power 5 program would deem his choice "inspiring"?

Pittsburgh just let (helped) what was by Purdue standards a tremendously successful coach walk out the door...then promptly missed out on its first two identified candidates, while TCU found him incredibly inspiring to the tune of more than $3m (and more than Painter is collecting). That said, Pitt has made it clear that money is not an issue in their search for a replacement...something never uttered (or likely to be) from anyone at Purdue.

Could Purdue do worse? For certain. Could Purdue do better? Absolutely. The latter is unlikely, as Purdue as a University is not committed to doing better, but it certainly could if it were. No guarantee admittedly...but, the Purdue mentality almost always is that the status quo is the best course of action, because what if it somehow got worse (never mind it has/did/is in football...but not because a change was made...but because of who handled said change...and, again, because Purdue as a University is not committed to being successful).

It has been 36 years now since Purdue last appeared in a Final Four...led there by a guy who was at the school as the Head Coach for a mere two years...two incredibly successful ones, and parlayed it into the incredible South Florida Head Coaching job. In that time, every other member that was a member of the conference at that time, other than Iowa and Northwestern, has appeared in at least one Final Four.

As to the point of being able to be critical of Painter...the OP was dead wrong, simple as that.

Good coaches understand what makes their teams good...knows (better than anyone) its strengths and weaknesses...more importantly, plays to said strengths and stays away from said weaknesses, or minimizes them by devising ways in which to do so. A good coach does not entirely change its course of direction in what is the most important game of said season, as Painter did against UALR. They don't panic, as Painter did/does. They provide leadership and composure, especially when the guys on the floor are not doing so (or capable of doing so)...Painter has not/does not. It does not take me not having been a coach at Purdue, or any other B1G school, to recognize that...I think the casual fan gets that...never mind anyone that actually follows the game closely.

Painter just took a team...the deepest team perhaps ever at Purdue, and certainly during his time there...a talented team...a team with four potential professional players...a team that had experience...that did not have any injury issues...or "bad apples"...and not only lost to a team that it was far better than and far more talented than, it blew a 14-point lead in less than 4 minutes. That was on the heels of having blown a 7-point lead in less than a minute a year ago in the first round of the NCAA tournament. It blew a lead in the exact same fashion that it had in at least four games previously just this season...the exact same fashion. No need to have coached high DI basketball to not recognize that, as the person that did that, and by the OPs assertion should understand that and have addressed it, did not.

At Purdue, whether it was Keady or is Painter, while the players and names change, the results and issues remain the same unfortunately...and there is little to no reason to expect that to change, which is even more unfortunate.
 
I'm not sure what you are saying, We should replace Painter because we could for sure find someone better, or we shouldn't? You lost me with the Pitt situation. They let Dixon go and whiffed on their first two choices. Was that a good decision or bad?

I did not say that Purdue should or should not replace Painter...I have said it elsewhere, and thought I said it in that post as well...as it stands at Purdue, it is a moot point...as there is no way that Purdue will replace him.

My point about Pitt was simply that Pitt found Dixon to not be inspiring...while TCU did...it had little to do with the Purdue situation, it was more to your point about not having found names that had been suggested when you had inquired about potential replacements to be inspiring. I suggest that a lot of Purdue fans right now do not find Painter inspiring...and that other schools similar to Purdue would probably assert/feel the same...but TCU (and similar such programs) would find him (just as they did Dixon) incredibly inspiring.

With respect to Pitt and what they did, relative to Purdue, I would contend that Pitt did not take the perspective that they could do worse with how they handled the matter...that they did not feel the status quo and maintaining it was the best course of action...that they acted from a position of belief that they not only could do better, but would...whether they will or won't remains to be seen, but they at least were willing to acknowledge that what they had was not good enough.
 
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I might be mistaken, but I believe Dixon left Pitt. Pitt didn't fire him.
 
I did not say that Purdue should or should not replace Painter...I have said it elsewhere, and thought I said it in that post as well...as it stands at Purdue, it is a moot point...as there is no way that Purdue will replace him.

My point about Pitt was simply that Pitt found Dixon to not be inspiring...while TCU did...it had little to do with the Purdue situation, it was more to your point about not having found names that had been suggested when you had inquired about potential replacements to be inspiring. I suggest that a lot of Purdue fans right now do not find Painter inspiring...and that other schools similar to Purdue would probably assert/feel the same...but TCU (and similar such programs) would find him (just as they did Dixon) incredibly inspiring.

With respect to Pitt and what they did, relative to Purdue, I would contend that Pitt did not take the perspective that they could do worse with how they handled the matter...that they did not feel the status quo and maintaining it was the best course of action...that they acted from a position of belief that they not only could do better, but would...whether they will or won't remains to be seen, but they at least were willing to acknowledge that what they had was not good enough.

+1
 
DG10, I am a rare poster on this board, but your assertion that "... Purdue as a University is not committed to being successful" is imbecilic and demands a response. As a 31-year professor here, I don't think you can imagine the degree to which my colleagues, students, and the University as a whole, are dedicated to "success." In pursuit of "success" for my students, and the University, I haven't taken a day off in more than three decades. What have you done to further the "success" of the University and its people in that span?
 
I did not say that Purdue should or should not replace Painter...I have said it elsewhere, and thought I said it in that post as well...as it stands at Purdue, it is a moot point...as there is no way that Purdue will replace him.

My point about Pitt was simply that Pitt found Dixon to not be inspiring...while TCU did...it had little to do with the Purdue situation, it was more to your point about not having found names that had been suggested when you had inquired about potential replacements to be inspiring. I suggest that a lot of Purdue fans right now do not find Painter inspiring...and that other schools similar to Purdue would probably assert/feel the same...but TCU (and similar such programs) would find him (just as they did Dixon) incredibly inspiring.

With respect to Pitt and what they did, relative to Purdue, I would contend that Pitt did not take the perspective that they could do worse with how they handled the matter...that they did not feel the status quo and maintaining it was the best course of action...that they acted from a position of belief that they not only could do better, but would...whether they will or won't remains to be seen, but they at least were willing to acknowledge that what they had was not good enough.
Ok, I think I get what you're saying. To answer your question, yes, I'm sure some other schools would find Painter inspiring as a potential new coach. And no, I have yet to hear anyone suggest someone that is realistic and inspiring to replace Painter here at PU. Could I be missing something? Yes, I absolutely recognize that.

I just get so tired of the whining and complaining about CMP and when you then try and pin that person down and ask for a specific solution you get:

Don't know
Just not Keady tree
Steve Fisher

I just would once like to see someone say "Painter needs to go and here is exactly what I would do to replace him" and then follow up with exact person they are going to hire. Without doing that what are you really adding? Nothing but negative energy with no solution.
 
My coaching resume includes the same number of final fours and elite eight appearances as Painter, and 2 fewer sweet sixteen appearances. He has one more Big Ten title than me. I think it's important to note that I am only 36 so at this point in my career our results are relatively comparable.

I was young for my class, and a late bloomer on top of that, so I missed out on high school ball. However, I did score 45 through 3 quarters of a boy's club game before it was called. I enjoyed a lot of success at the co-rec, often running for long win streaks on the main court. My intramural team was expected to go deep in the tournament, but a Sig Ep function before a late game led to 3 of our starters being unable to effectively negotiate their way to the game. Our disappointment of unrealized potential was much like this year's Purdue squad.

I still compete at a high level, playing with some of the best players in the area that are available from 9:00 to 10:15 on Wednesday or Thursday nights (and can make it on only a day's notice). My team won 3 of 4 games last night. I'll admit that my shot hasn't been the same since surgery on my feet a year ago. I just don't get the same lift on my jumper.

(TIC)...for those unable to figure it out.
 
And you know this how?

There are articles about how it went down from credible and reliable news sources (ex: CBS Sports; they have an Eye On College Basketball Podcast episode where the journalists that are the regulars of the podcast discussed it). Do you want me to post a link where you can listen to that podcast?
 
There are articles about how it went down from credible and reliable news sources (ex: CBS Sports; they have a Eye On College Basketball Podcast episode where the journalists that are the regulars of the podcast discussed it). Do you want me to send you a link where you can listen to that podcast?

Yes please.
 
Liu Kang, if you argue like this in our company, you would get fired already. You don't make any excuse for your low performance.
I'm just curious about your company. If your company was ranked #10 out of 200 (or however many there are) and was one of 64 who were invited to compete for a contract that would make you number one. And you were one of the first companies cut from the bid selection process because your presentation was not good enough, does the person who managed that presentation get fired?
 
I'm just curious about your company. If your company was ranked #10 out of 200 (or however many there are) and was one of 64 who were invited to compete for a contract that would make you number one. And you were one of the first companies cut from the bid selection process because your presentation was not good enough, does the person who managed that presentation get fired?

The NCAA tourney is not the "Bidding Process." It is the final result. It is the most important part of the entire college hoops season. Unfair? Probably. With that being said, that is the reality of college basketball, and Purdue provided an inferior product when it mattered most.
 
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I just get so tired of the whining and complaining about CMP and when you then try and pin that person down and ask for a specific solution you get:

Don't know
Just not Keady tree
Steve Fisher

I just would once like to see someone say "Painter needs to go and here is exactly what I would do to replace him" and then follow up with exact person they are going to hire. Without doing that what are you really adding? Nothing but negative energy with no solution.

This. People on this board like to talk about how they work for a "highly successful company that would not tolerate this mediocrity."

Highly successful companies that I know have a motto: "Anyone can complain about a problem. If you don't have a specific solution, you are just whining." Based on that, the people on this board demanding their idea of excellence from a freaking basketball team don't seem to have it in their own lives.
 
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