CMP Salary Increases? Should Be a Final 4 Bonus...

bonefish1

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That has been the point. Matt Painter is at a disadvantage at Purdue that the coaches he is being compared to don’t have.

Cinderella runs happen all the time in the tournament. Very rarely does it lead to more tournament success for those coaches.
What advantages does Izzo have at MSU that Painter doesn't have? Besides Izzo having turned MSU into a perennial FF contender?
I think they're in a very similar situation to Purdue when comparing the MSU/UM and PU/IU situation.

Location: even
Facilities: I like Mackey better than the Breslin Center. Mackey is definitely louder. Probably a draw. However, I can't speak to the training facility, locker room, player lounge, etc.
Exposure: Advantage MSU (both B10, lot of TV exposure, etc but MSU gets the higher profile preseason match-ups).
Recruiting base: Advantage Purdue: Closer to Indy and Chicago
History: MSU, mostly due to Izzo
Reputation: MSU: again, mostly due to Izzo, although the MSU Bball program and athletic Dept in general have had a lot of black eyes.
 

DAG10

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1. You don’t think IU’s championship history helps them recruit? The size of the fanbase doesnt matter to recruits?

3. Who do you think pays for facilities? The AD? The Boosters? Have you donated to JPC?

4. I think you accidentally left this one off. Have you donated to the Boiler Alliance?
No, I don't think IU's distant history matters a great deal, and, frankly...had Purdue capitalized as it could (should) have in recent years, they would have something more to offer in that regard as well. I do not believe the size of a fanbase matters to recruits, and, it will matter even less now with NIL in place...no better example than Nigel Pack. What matters to recruits (or did) was...getting to the NBA, and, winning (largely in March)...now, NIL matters as well.

The University pays...AD is responsible for it...I am confident that boosters have provided money, and, that Purdue has had a ton available to it. I have donated...as have so many others...but, it is a pittance vs BTN money.

I have not donated and do not plan to.
 

DAG10

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That has been the point. Matt Painter is at a disadvantage at Purdue that the coaches he is being compared to don’t have.

Cinderella runs happen all the time in the tournament. Very rarely does it lead to more tournament success for those coaches.
Nobody has compared him to anyone else though...at any point in the thread.

This all started with a discussion about his salary and bonus...and, went in some other directions, but, it was never about comparing him to anyone, never mind disadvantages that he allegedly has.
 

boilerball2021

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What advantages does Izzo have at MSU that Painter doesn't have? Besides Izzo having turned MSU into a perennial FF contender?
I think they're in a very similar situation to Purdue when comparing the MSU/UM and PU/IU situation.

Location: even
Facilities: I like Mackey better than the Breslin Center. Mackey is definitely louder. Probably a draw. However, I can't speak to the training facility, locker room, player lounge, etc.
Exposure: Advantage MSU (both B10, lot of TV exposure, etc but MSU gets the higher profile preseason match-ups).
Recruiting base: Advantage Purdue: Closer to Indy and Chicago
History: MSU, mostly due to Izzo
Reputation: MSU: again, mostly due to Izzo, although the MSU Bball program and athletic Dept in general have had a lot of black eyes.
Are you talking Izzo now, or when he first came to MSU? Now he has a championship pedigree. He also has bigger budgets due to MSU football.
 

boilerball2021

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No, I don't think IU's distant history matters a great deal, and, frankly...had Purdue capitalized as it could (should) have in recent years, they would have something more to offer in that regard as well. I do not believe the size of a fanbase matters to recruits, and, it will matter even less now with NIL in place...no better example than Nigel Pack. What matters to recruits (or did) was...getting to the NBA, and, winning (largely in March)...now, NIL matters as well.

The University pays...AD is responsible for it...I am confident that boosters have provided money, and, that Purdue has had a ton available to it. I have donated...as have so many others...but, it is a pittance vs BTN money.

I have not donated and do not plan to.
I completely disagree that championships (even if old) do not matter. There are many examples to prove that’s not the case. IU, UCLA, and Arizona to name a few.

Nigel Pack is a perfect example of why everyone needs to be donating to the Boiler Collective.

Purdue needs to tell JPC members to donate to the collective rather than their normal JPC contribution. The New BTN money will offset the loss in donations and make us one of the biggest NIL destinations out there.

So you say you think NIL is now one of the biggest advantages, but you have no plans to donate… okay.
 

boilerball2021

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Nobody has compared him to anyone else though...at any point in the thread.

This all started with a discussion about his salary and bonus...and, went in some other directions, but, it was never about comparing him to anyone, never mind disadvantages that he allegedly has.
People have brought up multiple coaches in comparison. You brought up both Hubert Davis and Holloway as examples of coaches that have gone just as far in the last year.
 

boilerball2021

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a quick tally so far (may be forgetting some)
good point about the coach transitions like wisconsin, included just that one as example
rank coach wins
1 calipari 44
2 self 42
3 williams 38
4 krzyzewski 35
5 wright 32
6 few 31
7 izzo 30
8 donovan 25
9 ryan/gard 25 (example)
10 pitino 23
11 beilein 21
12 boeheim 21
13 ryan 19
14 miller 19
15 drew 18
16 matta 18
17 painter 17
18 howland 15
19 altman 15
20 pearl 14
21 barnes 14
22 huggins 14
Dang, looks like Painter is in very solid company!!!
 

FirstDownB

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I would be careful about citing Shaka when you consider his Head-to-Head record vs Painter, never mind the obvious in that he managed to reach a FF already...at anything but a Blue Blood.
Shaka stock has plummeted because of not meeting expectations at Texas.
But overall, through 13 years of head coaching at the D1 level, he is tracking fairly close to Painter.

WinsLossesNCAA tourneySweet 16Final 4
Painter2901471030
Smart29115510*11

*includes Covid NCAAT cancelled season
 
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bonefish1

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Shaka stock has plummeted because of not meeting expectations at Texas.
But overall, through 13 years of head coaching at the D1 level, he is tracking fairly close to Painter.

WinsLossesNCAA tourneySweet 16Final 4
Painter2901471030
Smart29115510*11

*includes Covid NCAAT cancelled season
Don't forget, Shaka is 3-0 head to head with Painter.
 

boilerball2021

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You should also take into consideration how long at coach has been a D1 HC. Painter is what, 19 years?
He is going into his 19th year. Look at the company he is with there. No a single one aren’t HOF coaches. You are absolutely delusional if you think we are going to replace Painter with someone even remotely proven. You are looking at PJ Thompson, Cuanzo Martin, Robbie Hummel, or Ryne Smith type guys as his replacement.
 

bonefish1

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Irrelevant, small sample size. If Painter was 0-3 against Shaka but had 2 F4 you wouldn't care about head-to-head.
Very true, but that's not the case. Shaka is 3-0 and beat Painter on his way to the FF, so it is relevant.
 

bonefish1

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He is going into his 19th year. Look at the company he is with there. No a single one aren’t HOF coaches. You are absolutely delusional if you think we are going to replace Painter with someone even remotely proven. You are looking at PJ Thompson, Cuanzo Martin, Robbie Hummel, or Ryne Smith type guys as his replacement.

Painter is not a HOF coach.
I don't know who will replace him. My hope is that is isn't someone from the Painter tree.
I think the culture of Purdue basketball, like a lot of the fan base, is that "This is as good as it gets. Be happy we win 20 games and make the tourney. Tourney success is gravy."
I'd like to see someone come in and raise expectations, change the culture to where the FF is the goal every year. Convince the AD that with the financial and resource commitment, Purdue can be a perennial FF contender.
 

boilerball2021

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Painter is not a HOF coach.
I don't know who will replace him. My hope is that is isn't someone from the Painter tree.
I think the culture of Purdue basketball, like a lot of the fan base, is that "This is as good as it gets. Be happy we win 20 games and make the tourney. Tourney success is gravy."
I'd like to see someone come in and raise expectations, change the culture to where the FF is the goal every year. Convince the AD that with the financial and resource commitment, Purdue can be a perennial FF contender.
So basically you want to take a flyer on an unproven coach not in the coaching tree that has a better chance of flopping than succeeding. Got it.
 

Dryfly88

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Dang, looks like Painter is in very solid company!!!
I think what it actually reaffirms is that CMP is a good but not great coach. He is nowhere close to the guys at the top of that list which are great coaches. But he is very comparable to the guys around him on that list. As you work your way down that list put a check mark by the ones that have either a FF or a championship on top of all those tourney wins. CMP will once again fall into the group of good but not great coaches.
I like CMP and have never called for him to get fired or wished he would leave. But I also get tired of the folks that make him out to be something he's not. I don't know if we could get anyone that would have more success and neither does anyone else on here. It's impossible to know until it either happened or it didn't. What I do know is that he isn't going anywhere soon. So what I want to see is him get to where he is in the top part of that list and not where he is right now.
 

bonefish1

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So basically you want to take a flyer on an unproven coach not in the coaching tree that has a better chance of flopping than succeeding. Got it.
Where did I say unproven? What i said was someone not from the Painter coaching tree. And what gives you any indication someone would flop? There's no guarantee anyone from the Painter tree would succeed.
 

bonefish1

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I think what it actually reaffirms is that CMP is a good but not great coach. He is nowhere close to the guys at the top of that list which are great coaches. But he is very comparable to the guys around him on that list. As you work your way down that list put a check mark by the ones that have either a FF or a championship on top of all those tourney wins. CMP will once again fall into the group of good but not great coaches.
I like CMP and have never called for him to get fired or wished he would leave. But I also get tired of the folks that make him out to be something he's not. I don't know if we could get anyone that would have more success and neither does anyone else on here. It's impossible to know until it either happened or it didn't. What I do know is that he isn't going anywhere soon. So what I want to see is him get to where he is in the top part of that list and not where he is right now.
I thought Painters best shot at a NC was going to be in 2-3 years when DGL and Colvin were soph, Renn and Furst were Jr/Sr. berg is a Jr.
Losing DGL is a big loss and will be tough to replace a playmaking/scoring PG like him.
 

Dryfly88

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I thought Painters best shot at a NC was going to be in 2-3 years when DGL and Colvin were soph, Renn and Furst were Jr/Sr. berg is a Jr.
Losing DGL is a big loss and will be tough to replace a playmaking/scoring PG like him.
I love Colvin. Can't wait to see him in PU uniform. I will say it's hard to imagine a bracket opening up any better than what this last year did. Huge lost opportunity to put that check mark by CMP name on that list.
 
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DAG10

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I completely disagree that championships (even if old) do not matter. There are many examples to prove that’s not the case. IU, UCLA, and Arizona to name a few.

Nigel Pack is a perfect example of why everyone needs to be donating to the Boiler Collective.

Purdue needs to tell JPC members to donate to the collective rather than their normal JPC contribution. The New BTN money will offset the loss in donations and make us one of the biggest NIL destinations out there.

So you say you think NIL is now one of the biggest advantages, but you have no plans to donate… okay.
And there are just as many examples that prove that it is...Gonzaga...Auburn...Oregon...Illinois, and, multiple others.

No, Nigel Pack is not an example of why people should donate to a Collective...it is an example of why Purdue won't be able to compete with some sham of a collective...at least not until NIL gets reigned in or fails in some capacity.

The Collective that is in place is not doing anything, nor will it...it is token money for largely token players.

Purdue formed it to be able to have something...if/when it tangibly shows value in some sort, and, genuinely pays off as it has not to this point, I will gladly donate.
 
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DAG10

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I thought Painters best shot at a NC was going to be in 2-3 years when DGL and Colvin were soph, Renn and Furst were Jr/Sr. berg is a Jr.
Losing DGL is a big loss and will be tough to replace a playmaking/scoring PG like him.
His best chance(s) are behind him...missed on a couple of real opportunities.

Yes, that group in a couple of years might have been a good one, but, with NIL and what is happening other places, not sure that it would have even played out as you and I both hope that it might have...we will never know now, regardless.
 

boilerball2021

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I think what it actually reaffirms is that CMP is a good but not great coach. He is nowhere close to the guys at the top of that list which are great coaches. But he is very comparable to the guys around him on that list. As you work your way down that list put a check mark by the ones that have either a FF or a championship on top of all those tourney wins. CMP will once again fall into the group of good but not great coaches.
I like CMP and have never called for him to get fired or wished he would leave. But I also get tired of the folks that make him out to be something he's not. I don't know if we could get anyone that would have more success and neither does anyone else on here. It's impossible to know until it either happened or it didn't. What I do know is that he isn't going anywhere soon. So what I want to see is him get to where he is in the top part of that list and not where he is right now.
No one has said CMP is elite. He’s in the top 15 at his profession though. We are very lucky to have him as we are not a top 15 job, and not even close to top 15 from a resource perspective.
 
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DAG10

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People have brought up multiple coaches in comparison. You brought up both Hubert Davis and Holloway as examples of coaches that have gone just as far in the last year.
Nobody compared him to anyone...you asked for guys that had records like his in the NCAA tournament and found out fairly quickly that not only are there way more than you thought, but, you had not even considered guys like Holloway who accomplished as much from that standpoint as Painter...without anything in his favor to the extent that Painter has...at St. Peter's...AGAINST Painter.
 

boilerball2021

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Where did I say unproven? What i said was someone not from the Painter coaching tree. And what gives you any indication someone would flop? There's no guarantee anyone from the Painter tree would succeed.
We aren’t getting a proven coach here. I’ve already showed you that. Go back and look to see what programs that are considered way more attractive than us have gotten as coaches in recent years.

There is no guarantee someone from his tree will succeed, but we shouldn’t have to worry about that for a very long time as Painter still has 20+ years left. You want him replaced now.
 

DAG10

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No one has said CMP is elite. He’s in the top 15 at his profession though. We are very lucky to have him as we are not a top 15 job, and not even close to top 15 from a resource perspective.
I am not sure that he is top 15, but, he is top 25....I don't think Purdue is "lucky to have him"...rather, they are lucky that he is as good of a coach as he is.

Purdue should indeed be a top 25 job, and, it has the resources to go along with that...that as a school/institution it has chosen not to use them is on the University, not Painter...but, he certainly has had enough talent to have had more success than he has had, which, is the ultimate point.
 
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boilerball2021

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And there are just as many examples that prove that it is...Gonzaga...Auburn...Oregon...Illinois, and, multiple others.

No, Nigel Pack is not an example of why people should donate to a Collective...it is an example of why Purdue won't be able to compete with some sham of a collective...at least not until NIL gets reigned in or fails in some capacity.

The Collective that is in place is not doing anything, nor will it...it is token money for largely token players.

Purdue formed it to be able to have something...if/when it tangibly shows value in some sort, and, genuinely pays off as it has not to this point, I will gladly donate.
What has Illinois done to put them on that list? They haven’t even really recruited all that well and don’t have much if any success to show since like 2005.

Gonzaga is consistently at the top of college basketball. They’ve never won it obviously, but they are there. Purdue is not in that tier.

Oregon is also funny to put on the list. It’s not like Altman has a way better tournament history than Painter. They even have the advantage of the Nike backing.

Your thoughts on our collective are way off. It just went live this month and the board of directors were announced last week.
 

DAG10

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Are you talking Izzo now, or when he first came to MSU? Now he has a championship pedigree. He also has bigger budgets due to MSU football.
Izzo was/is a great coach though, thus WHY he has the pedigree that he does...he took a program that was maybe similar to Purdue with respect to national reputation and success and built it into a legitimate national power.

The budget constraints are real, but, it is not as if MSU was just doling out money when Izzo took over for Jud...and, when Purdue did have money to spend, it largely chose not to unfortunately. That said, if schools like VCU and St. Peter's and Loyola can make runs to the extent that they did/have, one would have to think that sometime since 1980, Purdue, would have been able to make a similar one at least once...yet, it has not.
 

Dryfly88

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No one has said CMP is elite. He’s in the top 15 at his profession though. We are very lucky to have him as we are not a top 15 job, and not even close to top 15 from a resource perspective.
I'm not an expert on coaches salaries but I believe we are paying him very close to that top 15 level you put him in. The one list I found with a quick search at 3.5 mil per year he would be number 16 on the salary list. So from a resource perspective that means we are right in line with where he is in the pecking order of coaches.
 

boilerball2021

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Nobody compared him to anyone...you asked for guys that had records like his in the NCAA tournament and found out fairly quickly that not only are there way more than you thought, but, you had not even considered guys like Holloway who accomplished as much from that standpoint as Painter...without anything in his favor to the extent that Painter has...at St. Peter's...AGAINST Painter.
No I asked which coaches had more wins than Painter in the last 16 years. The only coaches ahead of his 17 wins are considered elite coaches. Holloway won’t get to 17 tournament wins in his career.
 

bonefish1

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I love Colvin. Can't wait to see him in PU uniform. I will say it's hard to imagine a bracket opening up any better than what this last year did. Huge lost opportunity to put that check mark by CMP name on that list.
we absolutely should not have lost to St. Peters, but I think UNC would have taken us to the wood shed. They were playing at a really high level late in the year although the match up between Ivey and Love would have been fun.
I left Philly early the next morning.....
 

DAG10

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What has Illinois done to put them on that list? They haven’t even really recruited all that well and don’t have much if any success to show since like 2005.

Gonzaga is consistently at the top of college basketball. They’ve never won it obviously, but they are there. Purdue is not in that tier.

Oregon is also funny to put on the list. It’s not like Altman has a way better tournament history than Painter. They even have the advantage of the Nike backing.

Your thoughts on our collective are way off. It just went live this month and the board of directors were announced last week.
They all recruit at an extremely high level despite not having won a National Championship...and, largely without cheating (ala schools that you cited and that did win one).
 

boilerball2021

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I am not sure that he is top 15, but, he is top 25....I don't think Purdue is "lucky to have him"...rather, they are lucky that he is as good of a coach as he is.

Purdue should indeed be a top 25 job, and, it has the resources to go along with that...that as a school/institution it has chosen not to use them is on the University, not Painter...but, he certainly has had enough talent to have had more success than he has had, which, is the ultimate point.
Name the coaches you would rather have than CMP that are currently coaching. I asked this if a Painter hater on KHC and they could only come up with 12.
 

DAG10

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we absolutely should not have lost to St. Peters, but I think UNC would have taken us to the wood shed. They were playing at a really high level late in the year although the match up between Ivey and Love would have been fun.
I left Philly early the next morning.....
May have been the case, but, we will never know because of the epic choke to St. Peter's that occurred.
 

boilerball2021

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Izzo was/is a great coach though, thus WHY he has the pedigree that he does...he took a program that was maybe similar to Purdue with respect to national reputation and success and built it into a legitimate national power.

The budget constraints are real, but, it is not as if MSU was just doling out money when Izzo took over for Jud...and, when Purdue did have money to spend, it largely chose not to unfortunately. That said, if schools like VCU and St. Peter's and Loyola can make runs to the extent that they did/have, one would have to think that sometime since 1980, Purdue, would have been able to make a similar one at least once...yet, it has not.
Do you not understand how rare it is to find an Izzo? It’s not like that easy to do. Much higher chance we would take a step back not a step forward if we were to get rid of Painter now.
 

boilerball2021

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I'm not an expert on coaches salaries but I believe we are paying him very close to that top 15 level you put him in. The one list I found with a quick search at 3.5 mil per year he would be number 16 on the salary list. So from a resource perspective that means we are right in line with where he is in the pecking order of coaches.
Resources go outside of coaching salary. Assistant coaching pool, recruiting budget, facilities, booster NIL dollar now, etc.
 

boilerball2021

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They all recruit at an extremely high level despite not having won a National Championship...and, largely without cheating (ala schools that you cited and that did win one).
Illinois doesn’t really even recruit at that high of a level. They also haven’t done anything in the tournament since 2005.
 

bonefish1

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We aren’t getting a proven coach here. I’ve already showed you that. Go back and look to see what programs that are considered way more attractive than us have gotten as coaches in recent years.

There is no guarantee someone from his tree will succeed, but we shouldn’t have to worry about that for a very long time as Painter still has 20+ years left. You want him replaced now.
I like Painter, know him personally. I think he's a solid coach, decent recruiter, represents Purdue well. But.....I'm not going to lose much sleep when he leaves because I think it'll be an exciting time to change the program and see of someone else can get us over the proverbial hump.
in terms of getting a proven coach, you have no idea whether that might happen. Nor do I. I do know that the level of coach is directly correlated to the investment.
 

boilerball2021

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ONLY 12. That sounds like a lot to me. care to share who they were?
It’s buried at this point, but it was your usual championship coaches followed by the next tier of guys like Beard. Not anything earth shattering and no one in front of him that would be surprising.