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Anyone know the over/under on how many hours before our POTUS gets blamed for

Respectfully disagree to an extent. There is certainly a subset of deaths that could have been prevented with a more competent response.
I agree and said as much.......but we are never going to know how many. I just gave examples of events that definitely happened and can't be blamed on this admin.......mostly things that happened during or right after the hurricane. Deaths that happened weeks or months later are more likely to be caused by inaction by the admin.

Look, the deaths caused by mistakes by this admin are not 16......and they're not 3000. Somewhere in between and it's going to be almost impossible to arrive at an accurate number. Better to focus on what went wrong and correct the problems. The FEMA report is a good place to start.
 
Regarding Puerto Rico - my understanding is this:
1. The death toll of roughly 3,000 that's being reported includes deaths through 12/31 of last year...3 1/2 months after the cat 4 hurricane hit the island. To achieve those figures they looked at how many people died during the previous year vs. 2017 and calculated to the difference to arrive at that figure.
2. Puerto Rico's infrastructure (roads, electrical, etc) were darn near 3rd world to start with and were completely wiped out after the storm.
3. They are basically having to rebuild EVERYTHING from scratch. That doesn't happen in a few months. That takes decades.
4. All communication was completely knocked out so there was no way to communicate with truck drivers to get supplies dispersed throughout the island. The roads were made completely impassable.
the 3000 is NOT the "death toll" from hurricane maria. period. end of story. I'll repeat: In the second phase, researchers plan to interview families of victims who died during Maria’s aftermath to identify how many of the 2,975 deaths could be attributed to the hurricane.

This is nothing but the most pathetic spin. ~1800 people died in katrina in a much more damaging storm and densely populated area. Just because cnn says so doesn't make it true. Do your own damn research people and quit being lemmings.


That’s like you saying if you’re shot but don’t die until a few days later that it wasn’t as a result of the gunshot.

Just pathetic attempts to defend a heartless stupid son of a bitch.
 
Again, this was addressed earlier in the thread. The FEMA budget is not the same as disaster relief fund. We have already identified that this particular $10M does not impact response efforts for Florence. Please work on your reading comprehension.

This all goes back to the OP's question of when Trump will be blamed for Florence, I added the money movement was not going to be a good start to the conversation. That has turned out to be true. It doesn't matter that the money has no impact on the response, this thread is about what Trump will get blame for.
why do you care? FEMA is a multi billion dollar line item. Agencies reprogram money every day both within and outside the organization. Some stupid ass D congressman decided to make a stand on this particular transfer to take a jab at trump. Just like with this study that the msm decided to use to take a jab a trump and all the lemmings on here jump on it without the slightest bit of understanding where that number came from. Hell yes they are using this number to blame trump. Why else bring it up? The study was out weeks ago.
 
Respectfully disagree to an extent. There is certainly a subset of deaths that could have been prevented with a more competent response.
I'm open to this idea but how could one ever definitely say that the response wasn't enough? It's an island that was hit by a cat 4 storm and the entire infrastructure was wiped out. It will take years to get that place back to some sort of normalcy. You seem to be laying the deaths of these 3,000 people at the feet of our President. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
 
That’s like you saying if you’re shot but don’t die until a few days later that it wasn’t as a result of the gunshot.

Just pathetic attempts to defend a heartless stupid son of a bitch.
No retard. It's saying THEY DON'T KNOW WHY THESE PEOPLE DIED, JUST THAT THEY DIED. once again. another parroting moron who can't spend 10 minutes to read a damn synopsis. stick to sleep, where you're a viking.
 
If a breathing machine quits because there is no power and the patient dies, it is attributed to the hurricane. If a car gets swept off the road by water and the people drown, it's the hurricane. That's how the death toll from natural disasters get created, long before Trump was president. The rules don't get changed for him or his followers.
So we always continue to count deaths 3 1/2 months after a hurricane and attribute them to the hurricane? And why did they arbitrarily choose 12/31/17 as the end date? Just because the end of the year sounds good?
 
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So we always continue to count deaths 3 1/2 months after a hurricane on the hurricane? And why did they stop at 12/31/17? Who set that as the end date?
they don't care. they just want to blame trump for something. next we'll find out russia caused the hurricanes.
 
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why do you care? FEMA is a multi billion dollar line item. Agencies reprogram money every day both within and outside the organization. Some stupid ass D congressman decided to make a stand on this particular transfer to take a jab at trump. Just like with this study that the msm decided to use to take a jab a trump and all the lemmings on here jump on it without the slightest bit of understanding where that number came from. Hell yes they are using this number to blame trump. Why else bring it up? The study was out weeks ago.

Holy cow, I don't care. I don't like it, but it doesn't move the needle in my mind. The whole reason I brought it up is for the EXACT reason you just said, because people will use it in the conversation to blame Trump...which was the POINT OF THE THREAD. YOU then took that as an opportunity, similar to hunk originally, to debate something I never said and that you didn't even understand what I was saying.

I am going to stop replying to you on this now, given the fact you have called me a moron and others retards...so there really is no point in continuing.
 
Holy cow, I don't care. I don't like it, but it doesn't move the needle in my mind. The whole reason I brought it up is for the EXACT reason you just said, because people will use it in the conversation to blame Trump...which was the POINT OF THE THREAD. YOU then took that as an opportunity, similar to hunk originally, to debate something I never said and that you didn't even understand what I was saying.

I am going to stop replying to you on this now, given the fact you have called me a moron and others retards...so there really is no point in continuing.
good. go read a book or something.
 
That’s like you saying if you’re shot but don’t die until a few days later that it wasn’t as a result of the gunshot.

Just pathetic attempts to defend a heartless stupid son of a bitch.
No retard. It's saying THEY DON'T KNOW WHY THESE PEOPLE DIED, JUST THAT THEY DIED. once again. another parroting moron who can't spend 10 minutes to read a damn synopsis. stick to sleep, where you're a viking.

Why are you so afraid to be critical of anything trump says or does? I swear he could screw your sister and you would blame your sister. Just unreal.
 
I caught a part of the 5 yesterday. Gutfeld had a great piece about how the left intertwines President Trump into EVERYTHING. I think most call it TDS but Greg put his normal comedic spin on it and said its like a bartender making mixed drinks and always putting a "Trump Floater" into each drink. That's what the left does - no matter what's going on in the world, they always manage to put a Trump Floater into it. Scarborough's idiotic rant on 9/11 and then the WAPO blaming him for Hurricane Florence before it even arrives are just two examples in the past couple of days. But they do it everyday. Just watch the news and you'll see a Trump Floater in every story.
 
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Why are you so afraid to be critical of anything trump says or does? I swear he could screw your sister and you would blame your sister. Just unreal.
I'm not, but nice try moving the goal posts. Once again, if you understood the material being presented, it would go a long way.
 
I caught a part of the 5 yesterday. Gutfeld had a great piece about how the left intertwines President Trump into EVERYTHING. I think most call it TDS but Greg put his normal comedic spin on it and said its like a bartender making mixed drinks and always putting a "Trump Floater" into each drink. That's what the left does - no matter what's going on in the world, they always manage to put a Trump Floater into it. Scarborough idiotic rant on 9/11 and then the WAPO blaming him for Hurricane Florence before it even arrives are just two examples in the past couple of days. But they do it everyday. Just watch the news and you'll see a Trump Floater in every story.
Kind of like how the right worked Obama into everything? Except it's very hypocritical because if Obama had said and done half of what Trump does you guys would have blown your tops.
 
Kind of like how the right worked Obama into everything? Except it's very hypocritical because if Obama had said and done half of what Trump does you guys would have blown your tops.
Whataboutism?
 
why do you care? FEMA is a multi billion dollar line item. Agencies reprogram money every day both within and outside the organization.
which is why taxpayers should be malcontent with these gov inefficiencies and $ misappropriation.

rather than attacking the individual D here (whether his partisan intent or not), they could point out the larger-point hypocrisy. kind of another missed opportunity.
 
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If a breathing machine quits because there is no power and the patient dies, it is attributed to the hurricane. If a car gets swept off the road by water and the people drown, it's the hurricane. That's how the death toll from natural disasters get created, long before Trump was president. The rules don't get changed for him or his followers.

Now, are those deaths his fault, of course not. Did FEMA screw up and cause those deaths, NO. We will never know how many deaths should be attributed to failures by this admin......just like we won't know how many lives were saved by the actions of this admin.

Point is, if he would just stop trying to turn everything into a win there would be far less criticism. When he calls Puerto Rico a success he's gonna get shit.......and rightly so, it was an incredibly stupid thing to say. Now he's saying we have yet another conspiracy, the Dems are inflating the numbers. Stop!!!!!, just STFU. Say PR was a tragedy, circumstances were difficult, we tried our best but made some mistakes, we're going to learn from them, say what we are still doing now. JFC this stuff isn't hard but stop stepping on your own Johnson by trying to paint everything as the best ever, as a win, and blaming others......or in this case, the victims.
Quality post but I take issue with your last paragraph. I didn't hear the President touting the response to Maria until people started laying the deaths of 3,000 people at his feet.
 
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Jeffrey Toobin on CNN last night says that Trump would not have claimed the response to Maria a success had 3,000 whites died there. Only one small problem with that theory Jeffrey - Puerto Rico is 80% white.
 
I admire you Hunk for your battles with the various anti Trump people on here. You constantly provide info in support of the President. But please be ready as they will be attacking the President in regards to Florence. They cannot stand him and anything he does. I know, just like the Republicans did with Obama.
 
I admire you Hunk for your battles with the various anti Trump people on here. You constantly provide info in support of the President. But please be ready as they will be attacking the President in regards to Florence. They cannot stand him and anything he does. I know, just like the Republicans did with Obama.
At dinner with my 16 year old daughter the other night - was telling her how incredibly awesome the few years after 9/11 were. That no one argued with one another; no race baiting crap; no political correctness crap; no kneeling for athems; no intolerance; no political hatred of any kind; everyone just got along. The look on her face made me sad - a look like, "Why can't we be like that now?" Broke my heart to be honest.
What's odd is that was the time that most people started watching cable news to get their information. Cable news companies (followed by print and web) took advantage of this increased viewership and became part of the political machine in an effort to fire up their base to vote. End result is that they fired up their base so much that it has turned to violence and little to no tolerance for opposing views.
 
So we always continue to count deaths 3 1/2 months after a hurricane and attribute them to the hurricane? And why did they arbitrarily choose 12/31/17 as the end date? Just because the end of the year sounds good?
Uh, no. But if someone dies 3 months later from complications because a tree fell on them during the hurricane, that's counted. If they die from cancer, no. If they starved 3 months later because we didnt get them any food, it counts. Its not that hard.
 
Uh, no. But if someone dies 3 months later from complications because a tree fell on them during the hurricane, that's counted. If they die from cancer, no. If they starved 3 months later because we didnt get them any food, it counts. Its not that hard.
But that's what they did here to get that 3,000 figure. If you read the report it states they just took the number of people who died in those 4 months and subtracted the number of people who died in the same time frame the previous year. They have no idea how they died or if it had anything to do with the storm. You say its not that hard but I'd argue that its not that cut and dry either. Wouldn't you agree?
 
But that's what they did here to get that 3,000 figure. If you read the report it states they just took the number of people who died in those 4 months and subtracted the number of people who died in the same time frame the previous year. They have no idea how they died or if it had anything to do with the storm. You say its not that hard but I'd argue that its not that cut and dry either. Wouldn't you agree?

This is a gross oversimplification of their methodology.
 
Quality post but I take issue with your last paragraph. I didn't hear the President touting the response to Maria until people started laying the deaths of 3,000 people at his feet.
It doesn't matter WHEN he started touting the response to Maria. Lol. You're saying because he said it in response to a potentially unfair charge MAKES IT OK? The "BUT HE SAID IT FIRST!!!!!" argument? We're supposed to be adults here.

Plus, I don't even agree with your argument. He's been saying his admin did a great job in PR since the beginning when it was obvious things were in bad shape.

Be the president. Make people feel better when things are tough, not make it about yourself.
 
This is a gross oversimplification of their methodology.
How else would you describe how they arrived at this figure? Straight from the WAPO:
"Researchers in the mainland United States and Puerto Rico, led by scientists at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, calculated the number of deaths by surveying almost 3,300 randomly chosen households across the island and comparing the estimated post-hurricane death rate to the mortality rate for the year before. Their surveys indicated that the mortality rate was 14.3 deaths per 1,000 residents from Sept. 20 through Dec. 31, 2017, a 62 percent increase in the mortality rate compared with 2016, or 4,645 “excess deaths.”
 
It doesn't matter WHEN he started touting the response to Maria. Lol. You're saying because he said it in response to a potentially unfair charge MAKES IT OK? The "BUT HE SAID IT FIRST!!!!!" argument? We're supposed to be adults here.

Plus, I don't even agree with your argument. He's been saying his admin did a great job in PR since the beginning when it was obvious things were in bad shape.

Be the president. Make people feel better when things are tough, not make it about yourself.
Of course it matters - if the media is claiming his response lead to the deaths of 3,000 people then he has every right to refute that.
 
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Jeffrey Toobin on CNN last night says that Trump would not have claimed the response to Maria a success had 3,000 whites died there. Only one small problem with that theory Jeffrey - Puerto Rico is 80% white.
The US census has no mestizo option and people that would fit that description, ie most of Puerto Rico, have to choose between “white” and “other” on the census form. Most choose white for convenience sake.

His point still stands. If they were non Hispanic white English speakers, and especially if they were a state in the union, they would not have been treated the way that they were.

3000 people died due to racist indifference. If you voted for trump, you have blood on your hands. Shame on you.
 
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This was the fault of aggressive tax cuts and deregulation on the island. Supply side and austerity economics does not work, and I would go as far as to say it gets people killed.
So when evidence arrives that the President may not be at fault for the deaths of 3,000 people we then pivot to blame conservative economic principles? Man you guys are too much.
 
The US census has no mestizo option and people that would fit that description, ie most of Puerto Rico, have to choose between “white” and “other” on the census form. Most choose white for consciences sake.

His point still stands. If they were non Hispanic white English speakers, and especially if they were a state in the union, they would not have been treated the way that they were.

3000 people died due to racist indifference. If you voted for trump, you have blood on your hands. Shame on you.
Right - and those 3,000 people would still be alive if only Obama was President. Amirite?
 
3000 people died due to racist indifference. If you voted for trump, you have blood on your hands. Shame on you.
I think I've just found my new gbi signature. You have real issues dude. I sincerely hope you get some help before you drive to D.C. and start shooting at congressmen as they have baseball practice.
 
So when evidence arrives that the President may not be at fault for the deaths of 3,000 people we then pivot to blame conservative economic principles? Man you guys are too much.
Both of these things can be true at the same time. The federal response was a cruel joke, and the last decade of economic choices made on the island to try and entice business investment crippled the islands economy
 
How else would you describe how they arrived at this figure? Straight from the WAPO:
"Researchers in the mainland United States and Puerto Rico, led by scientists at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, calculated the number of deaths by surveying almost 3,300 randomly chosen households across the island and comparing the estimated post-hurricane death rate to the mortality rate for the year before. Their surveys indicated that the mortality rate was 14.3 deaths per 1,000 residents from Sept. 20 through Dec. 31, 2017, a 62 percent increase in the mortality rate compared with 2016, or 4,645 “excess deaths.”

1) This was from a complementary study to the one Puerto Rico used to revise their death toll. The study that was actually commissioned by the PR government had this as a very high level description for their methodology:
"The estimate of 2,975 was determined using a mathematical model based on historical patterns, with adjustments made for age and sex, researchers said."

2) My point that you grossly oversimplified the methodology *still* stands w/r/t the Harvard and Beth Israel report. Thank you for providing the evidence.
 
1) This was from a complementary study to the one Puerto Rico used to revise their death toll. The study that was actually commissioned by the PR government had this as a very high level description for their methodology:
"The estimate of 2,975 was determined using a mathematical model based on historical patterns, with adjustments made for age and sex, researchers said."

2) My point that you grossly oversimplified the methodology *still* stands w/r/t the Harvard and Beth Israel report. Thank you for providing the evidence.
Yeah - there's not that much difference in what the WAPO reported and what you just pasted. Odd that you freaked out over that minuscule difference.
 
Yeah - there's not that much difference in what the WAPO reported and what you just pasted. Odd that you freaked out over that minuscule difference.

lol there are varying levels of complexity behind these models (constructed by folks who know far more about this kind of research than you or I do). Your original claim that they simply "subtracted" from one year to the next is laughable and a gross oversimplification.
 
This whole message board be like, "Stop blaming Trump for everything! Obama gave him the worst economy ever!"

"Yeah, but Obama inherited a crappy situation in Iraq and mounting debt from Bush."

"Yeah, but Bush had to clean up the mess - literal and figurative - left in the Oval Office by Clinton and Monica."

"Yeah, but..."
 
lol there are varying levels of complexity behind these models (constructed by folks who know far more about this kind of research than you or I do). Your original claim that they simply "subtracted" from one year to the next is laughable and a gross oversimplification.
Its really not that far off from what they did.
 
Kind of like how the right worked Obama into everything? Except it's very hypocritical because if Obama had said and done half of what Trump does you guys would have blown your tops.

Obama should have sent the plane load of money to Puerto Rico, to help build their infrastructure more hurricane proof, instead of sending it to Iran.
Instead of the Nobel Peace prize he would have gotten the Nobel Economic Sciences Prize.
I blame it on Obama.
 
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