A change in philosophy

[BBG]

So reading the article on the front page about Cline and Mathias playing together more next season tells me a few things:

1. Contrary to the belief of some on here, Painter is open to change and appears to be trying to focus more on offense than defense.
2. The theme I got from that article is that there is a small chance Biggie comes back. While losing him is a big deal, I truly think Vince will have a big year and make us "forget" biggie
3. If Biggie comes back and the addition of Spike, it seems like CE might be heading for a redshirt

There are more things I am sure I am missing, but off the top of my head those are some of the takeaways I had from the article. Biggest one being CMP seemingly focusing more on being a offensive team as opposed to defensive minded. Sure losing Davis and AJH had an impact no doubt, but I also think he looked at the data from the year, saw the impact the new rules had and then changed accordingly. You can also see it in the type of player he is recruiting (guard heavy almost).

Just my perception, as flawed as it is.

Article here

 

[nagemj02]

So reading the article on the front page about Cline and Mathias playing together more next season tells me a few things:

1. Contrary to the belief of some on here, Painter is open to change and appears to be trying to focus more on offense than defense.
2. The theme I got from that article is that there is a small chance Biggie comes back. While losing him is a big deal, I truly think Vince will have a big year and make us "forget" biggie
3. If Biggie comes back and the addition of Spike, it seems like CE might be heading for a redshirt

There are more things I am sure I am missing, but off the top of my head those are some of the takeaways I had from the article. Biggest one being CMP seemingly focusing more on being a offensive team as opposed to defensive minded. Sure losing Davis and AJH had an impact no doubt, but I also think he looked at the data from the year, saw the impact the new rules had and then changed accordingly. You can also see it in the type of player he is recruiting (guard heavy almost).

Just my perception, as flawed as it is.

Article here

I've always thought that CMP has a personality that is actually more well-suited for changing things up than say, Coach Keady, but it's been a matter of getting him to realize that and putting different strategies into action in practice and games. I just think that Coach Keady's coaching style and philosophy (and to some degree, Bob Knight's as well) was/is so engrained in him that it hasn't been easy for him to be open to different schematic ideas and other things of that nature.

 

[BBG]

I've always thought that CMP has a personality that is actually more well-suited for changing things up than say, Coach Keady, but it's been a matter of getting him to realize that and putting different strategies into action in practice and games. I just think that Coach Keady's coaching style and philosophy (and to some degree, Bob Knight's as well) was/is so engrained in him that it hasn't been easy for him to be open to different schematic ideas and other things of that nature.

I agree to that with a twist, I think CMP is more methodical and more of what I call a "data analyst" than someone that does an immediate or knee-jerk change.

I say that because that is how I am being in the IT world and I have noticed a lot of similarities. Now I most certainly can be completely wrong because I'm not part of his staff nor interact with him, but it seems like that is the case to me.

 

[M51]

I've always thought that CMP has a personality that is actually more well-suited for changing things up than say, Coach Keady, but it's been a matter of getting him to realize that and putting different strategies into action in practice and games. I just think that Coach Keady's coaching style and philosophy (and to some degree, Bob Knight's as well) was/is so engrained in him that it hasn't been easy for him to be open to different schematic ideas and other things of that nature.

Very doubtful that CE will redshirt. Prob see him more as a backup to Cline and Matias. He will get about 10 min a game, maybe more. Also get some mins at the point. Spike is a bigger question than CE.

My thoughts are Painter played Davis way too much, very little offense in return for mins played. Sounds like the ball stuck in hands too much.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Projecting an out of state player most likely you have not seen play other than highlight films before he suits up for Purdue and plays competitively to RS......interesting......sure you have enough data for that conclusion?

And what about the article makes you think there is a small chance Biggie comes back? While that might be the case, I missed that info in the article?

 

[M51]

Projecting an out of state player most likely you have not seen play other than highlight films before he suits up for Purdue and plays competitively to RS......interesting......sure you have enough data for that conclusion?

Perhaps I have seen CE play 4-5 times.

Post some data to back up your opinion.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Perhaps I have seen CE play 4-5 times.

Post some data to back up your opinion.

My data is that the kid hasn't played on Keady Court yet.....so not enough info to declare RS.

 

[Heller]

Unless there is an injury or we sign a bunch of guys here late then no one will redshirt.

 

[M51]

Projecting an out of state player most likely you have not seen play other than highlight films before he suits up for Purdue and plays competitively to RS......interesting......sure you have enough data for that conclusion?

And what about the article makes you think there is a small chance Biggie comes back? While that might be the case, I missed that info in the article?

BBG will have to respond to your question about Biggie.

 

[M51]

Unless there is an injury or we sign a bunch of guys here late then no one will redshirt.

Agree 100%. Only 10 on schollie as of now? Painter would have to get an impact player for anyone to RS. And that would need to be a 4.

 

[BBG]

BBG will have to respond to your question about Biggie.

Gladly. I base my opinion on more than just this article I guess and right now is more just a hunch. Nothing concrete of course because I have no inside info.

 

[BBG]

Agree 100%. Only 10 on schollie as of now? Painter would have to get an impact player for anyone to RS. And that would need to be a 4.

Good point that I had forgotten.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Gladly. I base my opinion on more than just this article I guess and right now is more just a hunch. Nothing concrete of course because I have no inside info.

It's no-rules MAY ... fantasy can be reality in MAY. It's a time we basketball/Purdue junkies can imagine anything wonderful that we want to imagine.

 

[TC4THREE]

Agree 100%. Only 10 on schollie as of now? Painter would have to get an impact player for anyone to RS. And that would need to be a 4.

10 if you include Swanigan right?

 

[FirstDownB]

So reading the article on the front page about Cline and Mathias playing together more next season tells me a few things:

1. Contrary to the belief of some on here, Painter is open to change and appears to be trying to focus more on offense than defense.
2. The theme I got from that article is that there is a small chance Biggie comes back. While losing him is a big deal, I truly think Vince will have a big year and make us "forget" biggie
3. If Biggie comes back and the addition of Spike, it seems like CE might be heading for a redshirt

There are more things I am sure I am missing, but off the top of my head those are some of the takeaways I had from the article. Biggest one being CMP seemingly focusing more on being a offensive team as opposed to defensive minded. Sure losing Davis and AJH had an impact no doubt, but I also think he looked at the data from the year, saw the impact the new rules had and then changed accordingly. You can also see it in the type of player he is recruiting (guard heavy almost).

Just my perception, as flawed as it is.

Article here

Disagree on #3. While the article suggests Cline and Mathias will be getting a lot of minutes, I see Carsen's role as being similar to Cline's last year. He will be needed as a situational player when match-ups or the game situation dictates the need for more quickness and ball handling.

 

[M51]

10 if you include Swanigan right?

Yes.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

So reading the article on the front page about Cline and Mathias playing together more next season tells me a few things:

1. Contrary to the belief of some on here, Painter is open to change and appears to be trying to focus more on offense than defense.
2. The theme I got from that article is that there is a small chance Biggie comes back. While losing him is a big deal, I truly think Vince will have a big year and make us "forget" biggie
3. If Biggie comes back and the addition of Spike, it seems like CE might be heading for a redshirt

There are more things I am sure I am missing, but off the top of my head those are some of the takeaways I had from the article. Biggest one being CMP seemingly focusing more on being a offensive team as opposed to defensive minded. Sure losing Davis and AJH had an impact no doubt, but I also think he looked at the data from the year, saw the impact the new rules had and then changed accordingly. You can also see it in the type of player he is recruiting (guard heavy almost).

Just my perception, as flawed as it is.

Article here

I don't think that Painter's philosophy has changed. He's always tried to build around his best players and Mathias and Cline are good players. I think that a lineup of Spike/Mathias/Cline/Edwards/Haas would be very efficient and tough to guard. Defense would a big question mark, though.

 

[BBG]

Disagree on #3. While the article suggests Cline and Mathias will be getting a lot of minutes, I see Carsen's role as being similar to Cline's last year. He will be needed as a situational player when match-ups or the game situation dictates the need for more quickness and ball handling.

Good point. That is why I posted this thread so people can enlighten me so thanks

 

[BBG]

I don't think that Painter's philosophy has changed. He's always tried to build around his best players and Mathias and Cline are good players. I think that a lineup of Spike/Mathias/Cline/Edwards/Haas would be very efficient and tough to guard. Defense would a big question mark, though.

I agree to a point. You are correct in that CMP tries to build around his players however, the players and lineups he might use next season to me suggest he is getting away from defense and going more offensive. And the players he got recently sort of suggest that as well IMO .. they are more offensive than defensive.

I think we'll still see man to man defense though.. but maybe that will change too. Who knows *shrugs*

 

[BoilerBiker]

Certainly hope no RSs especially CE.

I don't really see a change in philosophy, it seems to just solidify what coach has always valued from his guards - protect the ball, have high bball IQs.
playing them both shows the same prioritizations for his guards offensively - 1. dont turn the ball over, 2. distribute/move the ball, which creates opportunity for the other 4 on the floor, 3. Create/penetrate/shoot for yourself when you see a good opening.

Defensively
If we landed some prolific scorer but he played zero D, I would imagine he'd still see far fewer minutes here compared to many other teams, at least until he learned/improved on that side.

 

[BoilerBiker]

I'd add that I think the staff likely feels defense can be taught, at least far more than offense.
(e.g. r.Davis, or even Cline on one year - he looked pretty lost at beginning of the year, and improved a lot).

 

[lbodel]

So reading the article on the front page about Cline and Mathias playing together more next season tells me a few things:

1. Contrary to the belief of some on here, Painter is open to change and appears to be trying to focus more on offense than defense.
2. The theme I got from that article is that there is a small chance Biggie comes back. While losing him is a big deal, I truly think Vince will have a big year and make us "forget" biggie
3. If Biggie comes back and the addition of Spike, it seems like CE might be heading for a redshirt

There are more things I am sure I am missing, but off the top of my head those are some of the takeaways I had from the article. Biggest one being CMP seemingly focusing more on being a offensive team as opposed to defensive minded. Sure losing Davis and AJH had an impact no doubt, but I also think he looked at the data from the year, saw the impact the new rules had and then changed accordingly. You can also see it in the type of player he is recruiting (guard heavy almost).

Just my perception, as flawed as it is.

Article here

Oh goodness.

While these types of forums obviously bring out over-analyzing....

"To be focused more on offense than defense" I think this is completely false. First, the reason they weren't playing together much is because there was an BIG TEN DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR on the roster. You play your best roster and that's what Painter has done. It's not like we've played some defensive guy that can't score over some All-Big Ten caliber guard the last 10 years....

In addition, you also had Hammons in there with Big Ten DPOY quality minutes.

Also, if you look at our actual numbers - our offensive numbers outperformed our defensive numbers last year within the Big Ten conference. We weren't 10th in PPG or something like people are acting.

In conference only games, we were 4th in PPG, 3rd in FG % and 3rd in 3 pt FG %.

How on earth is that a lack of focus on offense? Considering we didn't have pure-bred scorers like people complain about all the time, finishing in the top 4 in the three main offensive statistics is pretty darn impressive if you ask me...

 

[BoilerDaddy]

I agree to a point. You are correct in that CMP tries to build around his players however, the players and lineups he might use next season to me suggest he is getting away from defense and going more offensive. And the players he got recently sort of suggest that as well IMO .. they are more offensive than defensive.

I think we'll still see man to man defense though.. but maybe that will change too. Who knows *shrugs*

I do agree that Painter has altered his recruiting priorities over the years, especially after he had a couple of teams that struggled with chemistry, skill, and basketball IQ.

 

[BBG]

In conference only games, we were 4th in PPG, 3rd in FG % and 3rd in 3 pt FG %.

How on earth is that a lack of focus on offense? Considering we didn't have pure-bred scorers like people complain about all the time, finishing in the top 4 in the three main offensive statistics is pretty darn impressive if you ask me...

Hang on you're missing what I said/meant ..... I meant things next year might be leaning more towards offense than defense. I didn't mean that there was a lack of focus on offense at all ..

 

[bonefish1]

"Basketball IQ" is a silly statement. It usually means a guy lacks talent or athleticism (kind of like 'scrappy'). And why is it almost always labeled on white guys, (also like 'scrappy').
Basketball IQ doesn't get you to the NBA, talent does. You can have a huge 'basketball IQ', whatever the hell that means, but over the course of a game, talent usually will prevail.

 

[boilerzz]

"Basketball IQ" is a silly statement. It usually means a guy lacks talent or athleticism (kind of like 'scrappy'). And why is it almost always labeled on white guys, (also like 'scrappy').

Well that is your take and you are certainly entitled to it. I vehemently disagree.

 

[proudopete]

"Basketball IQ" is a silly statement. It usually means a guy lacks talent or athleticism (kind of like 'scrappy'). And why is it almost always labeled on white guys, (also like 'scrappy').
Basketball IQ doesn't get you to the NBA, talent does. You can have a huge 'basketball IQ', whatever the hell that means, but over the course of a game, talent usually will prevail.

Troy willams has talent. Troy Williams has a low basketball IQ. In other words. He doesn't understand the nuances of the game.

 

[BoilerBiker]

I'll take DM and RCs bball IQ over any lack of Sauce.

 

[Schnelk]

If GK gets a whiff of this "more offense potentially sacrificing defense" rhetoric the hotline is going to be burning up...

 

[bonefish1]

Troy willams has talent. Troy Williams has a low basketball IQ. In other words. He doesn't understand the nuances of the game.

What "nuances" are you referring to? What doesn't he understand?
He's got enough of an understanding to play in the NBA....

 

[bonefish1]

I'll take DM and RCs bball IQ over any lack of Sauce.

Explain specifically why you think DM and CK have high bball IQs. What do they do that someone with a lower basketball IQ doesn't?
Would you say that every player in the NBA has a high bball IQ?
You can be the smartest player in the conference, but that doesn't make you run faster, jump higher or shoot better.
Again, it's usually associated with white guys who aren't athletically gifted.

 

[dwhitebash11]

I agree with the philosophy change. I think it's either one of two things:


1. Painter wants to stack up on PGs because of the inconsistent play we had last year at that position, and with him getting PJ, CE, and not Spike, we should be sufficient;


2. Painter has slowly seen the revolution of basketball and the advantage that a guard-orientated team brings to the game compared to a team with massive size. Villanova, the defending national champs, are a prime example. Jay Wright has always had a heavy guard-oriented team, and has always done well with it. The game is built around speed now compared to size. A good mixture of both is important.


I could see Painter using Cline, Mathias, PJ, CE, and Spike in a guard rotation. The only bigs who would see the floor would be Haas, Biggie (pending NBA), Taylor (pending Biggie). VE and Smotherman would basically play the 4 at all times with this lineup. My only problem is, are Cline/Mathias/PJ/Spike quick enough to be dependable at all times? Can they create for themselves and others at anytime? I'm not sure about Cline/Mathias. They are great role players. PJ, at times, and Spike, hopefully.

 

[tjreese]

I don't think that Painter's philosophy has changed. He's always tried to build around his best players and Mathias and Cline are good players. I think that a lineup of Spike/Mathias/Cline/Edwards/Haas would be very efficient and tough to guard. Defense would a big question mark, though.

Well, as I was reading down I thought I was the only one that thought Matt saw his "best" team differently than he saw last year..a different makeup to provide the best team. I think we can count on Matt to expect his guards to rebound. I think we can expect him to expect all players to defend and share the ball...and only take good shots. I think we can expect him to expect his players to take good shots and probe the inside more than not. I think we can expect Matt to prefer guards with length and to prefer to play two combo type guards when he can get there in recruiting. I just think he understands what he has and knows he could be pretty good offensive and will have an offensive lean due to players....and rule emphasis which adds a flavor of adaptability to the game in addition to the players. Whatever if any philosophical changes he may have made will show up in four year recruited player "types" more than current players on the team that he will attempt to assemble into the best team this year...I think...

 

[Dakota Girl]

I agree to a point. You are correct in that CMP tries to build around his players however, the players and lineups he might use next season to me suggest he is getting away from defense and going more offensive. And the players he got recently sort of suggest that as well IMO .. they are more offensive than defensive.

I think we'll still see man to man defense though.. but maybe that will change too. Who knows *shrugs*

I would not anticipate Purdue dropping man to man defense. Painter like most who coach like to play one or the other, not both. This is because coaches understand that it is not so much what D you play but how well you execute the one you play. I don't think he will choose a zone primarily because of history but also because Purdue will be playing smaller and will not likely rebound as well as last season. Adding the difficulty of rebounding out of a zone would be disastrous. We may see more passing lane pressure with a little less ball pressure (against a live dribble) to protect against the drive. The passing lane pressure can generate steals and trigger the transition offense. Haas will have to be careful as he doesn't have the luxury of having 9 fouls to give (between him and AJ) at one position. I am excited to see what does develop.

 

[tjreese]

"Basketball IQ" is a silly statement. It usually means a guy lacks talent or athleticism (kind of like 'scrappy'). And why is it almost always labeled on white guys, (also like 'scrappy').
Basketball IQ doesn't get you to the NBA, talent does. You can have a huge 'basketball IQ', whatever the hell that means, but over the course of a game, talent usually will prevail.

Larry Bird had a high basketball IQ and talent...but was not athletic. The NBA leans to athleticism..and the NCAA is leaning more that way over time as well

 

[tjreese]

I would not anticipate Purdue dropping man to man defense. Painter like most who coach like to play one or the other, not both. This is because coaches understand that it is not so much what D you play but how well you execute the one you play. I don't think he will choose a zone primarily because of history but also because Purdue will be playing smaller and will not likely rebound as well as last season. Adding the difficulty of rebounding out of a zone would be disastrous. We may see more passing lane pressure with a little less ball pressure (against a live dribble) to protect against the drive. The passing lane pressure can generate steals and trigger the transition offense. Haas will have to be careful as he doesn't have the luxury of having 9 fouls to give (between him and AJ) at one position. I am excited to see what does develop.

There are very few things a zone can do that man cannot...and if zone I lean to match-up rather than straight zone. If Purdue is in any zone this year..I expect it to be zone trap or press...

 

[Dakota Girl]

Larry Bird had a high basketball IQ and talent...but was not athletic. The NBA leans to athleticism..and the NCAA is leaning more that way over time as well

I'm responding to bonefish's quote regarding basketball IQ being silly term through tj's post (I don't know why...not good with this whole inter web thing). There are some who use the term basketball IQ for guys who lack athleticism but that's just lazy commentary though. MJ had fantastic basketball IQ and no one talked about it because all anyone cares about his ridiculous moves. Basketball IQ is part of "talent". Want to see athleticism without basketball IQ...watch the freakish combination of highlights and lowlights that is Troy Williams.
The greats have it all in spades.

 

[Dakota Girl]

There are very few things a zone can do that man cannot...and if zone I lean to match-up rather than straight zone. If Purdue is in any zone this year..I expect it to be zone trap or press...

If I were the coach (still don't get why I'm not) and I wanted to zone. I would look at Beoheim's match up two three / 1-3-1 morphing zone. I also loved Jerry Tarkanian's Ameoba zone. I have used it with some All Star youth teams to confuse the heck out of the opposing offense and coach. It's easy to teach and was great for that switch from regular league man to man to an all star format allowing anything.

 

[bonefish1]

I'm responding to bonefish's quote regarding basketball IQ being silly term through tj's post (I don't know why...not good with this whole inter web thing). There are some who use the term basketball IQ for guys who lack athleticism but that's just lazy commentary though. MJ had fantastic basketball IQ and no one talked about it because all anyone cares about his ridiculous moves. Basketball IQ is part of "talent". Want to see athleticism without basketball IQ...watch the freakish combination of highlights and lowlights that is Troy Williams.
The greats have it all in spades.

Bball IQ is not something that you can subjectively measure and it's not like some players have it and others don't. Does a player that makes great plays have a high bball IQ? In that case, every player in the NBA would be considered to have it.
Does a player who makes a lot of turnovers or has a low shooting percentage have a low bball IQ? Or....does it really just come down to who has talent and who doesn't?
You're never going to hear a fan say "well, we lost the game but boy, a bunch of our players sure do have a high bball IQ".

 

[proudopete]

Bball IQ is not something that you can subjectively measure and it's not like some players have it and others don't. Does a player that makes great plays have a high bball IQ? In that case, every player in the NBA would be considered to have it.
Does a player who makes a lot of turnovers or has a low shooting percentage have a low bball IQ? Or....does it really just come down to who has talent and who doesn't?
You're never going to hear a fan say "well, we lost the game but boy, a bunch of our players sure do have a high bball IQ".

I disagree about it being who had talent and who doesn't. I also agree with dakota girl that basketball IQ is a part of talent.
Knowing when and how to achieve an advantage in any number of situations is basketball IQ. Works on both ends of the floor. Some guys have it, some don't. Some guys have it and the ability to adjust when denied the advantage to create another advantage. Big Dog comes to mind.

I think quarter back in football is a good way to show an example. There are many quarter backs who are better athletes in the NFL compared to Brees or Manning. But because the former both had more knowledge of how to create an advantage against what the defense is trying to do, they are more successful.

I can see where Dakota has that. I have seen a glimpse with Cline. Bird and Magic both had it oozing from there pores.

But it has zero to do with athletism to me. It has to do with what you know that the other guy doesn't. Getting the defense off balance, drawing a foul on a guy out of position, taking a shot when the defender goes under a screen. That those of stuff and of course the same can be done on the defensive end.