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What's the point?

qazplm

All-American
Gold Member
Feb 5, 2003
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Folks lose their minds because Obama refuses to turn this into a cultural religious battle with good Christians on one side and bad Muslims on the other side.

So, you have a small but deadly group of extremists. This small but deadly group of extremists has success in convincing some others that the West, and in fact other "wannabe" Muslims are really out to get Islam. They are trying to convince even more people to join their cause. If they fail in this cause, their movement wilts, because unlike other, surface similar groups, they need to hold territory and establish a permanent area of control...which means they need people.

To counter this threat you could:

A) Attack them with weapons while also simultaneously disavowing their central argument that such attacks are a war on Islam.

B) Do the same while playing into their central argument that you are really warring against Islam.

Which option is the better practical option to proceed that does the most damage to said group? Attacking them while denying their main theme, or attacking them and reinforcing that theme?

IOW, the point is, get rid of ISIS. You do that by both attacking them directly, and removing the motivation of others to join them as much as possible. Basic counterinsurgency tactics straight from Petraeus et al.
 
The first option is clearly the correct one, but it's augmented by having Muslims fighting Muslims, rather than Western troops on the ground in direct combat. *IF* that goal can be achieved, you completely discredit their desired argument which is that ISIS is defending the caliphate against the Romans and that the apocalypse is coming, preceded by a great Muslim victory at Dabiq.

IMO, while the President completely mischaracterized ISIS early on, the cautious approach is the right one here. There are going to be a lot more atrocities committed by ISIS, but so long as we (as Americans) understand that their goal is to draw us into a conflict, we can hopefully avoid it and let them die on the vine.

Sadly, I fear that some Hawks are going to want to go in and root them out with US/NATO/UN military force, and that's going to take a whole different PR campaign that will likely make it that much more difficult to defeat the ideology... and that's really what this is all about.
 
agree with that

my point I guess was trying to figure out what the folks who want Obama to say "Islamic terrorists" or now apparently "holy war" actually think that will accomplish? Or is it just short-hand for, if Obama's for it, I'm a'gin it.
 
Re: agree with that


I don't know about the Obama Bad thing in this specific case. I think there are a lot of my fellow conservatives who believe you can win every war with military might. As you and I agree, that's not how you defeat an ideology.
 
I dont know

Giuliani was talking about ISIS and the President and basically said something to the effect of he didn't think the President really loved America. A sitting congressman accused him of being more for ISIS than America just this week. O'Reilly says the President should just call it a holy war, and then you had Fox going on and on about how this is really a "problem with Islam" and of course people lost their minds over his comments at the Prayer Breakfast and this week during the summit on dealing with extremists terrorists.
 
Re: agree with that

They probably would also believe had we named Germany, Japan, and Italy something other than the Axis Powers that we could have won that war in far less time as well.
 
Re: I dont know

Well I mean Obama doesn't say "Islamic" terrorists because he's a Muslim himself, obviously, with a middle name like Hussein and that colored skin, after all. Was he even born here?

Fox News... smh.
 
Re: I dont know

Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Well I mean Obama doesn't say "Islamic" terrorists because he's a Muslim himself, obviously, with a middle name like Hussein and that colored skin, after all. Was he even born here?

Fox News... smh.
Now Al Jazeera... now THAT'S a news station!
 
A few thoughts on this

-As for the part on your post about Guiliani and the congressman I just basically ignore that crap. It creates headlines, infuriates people and that is all. I mean more than one time Republicans have been called terrorists and having a war on women, etc-just ignore it. Useless bs. Great for talk show news. That said, ask yourself a serious question if Obama earned some of those comments with the people he is influenced by, has hung out ,with, by his comments, and his wife comments.

-As for O'Reilly, I do not watch him and did not know he said that. If I were Obama, I would not call it a Holy War. For the same above reason, it would infuriate everything and really help the recruiting efforts of ISIS/Al Qaeda IMO. Now I will say, I think with certain sects such as ISIS and Al Qaeda and Iran, in essence there is a Holy War at least in their eyes. Read the article that Gr8 linked in regards to Caliphate.

-As for FOX calling it a problem with Islam, well, IMO, pretty tough to even argue that. Definitely an issue with some sects of it.

-The issue with the prayer breakfast was just why even say it? He avoided saying Islamic Terrorists why mention the Crusades from several hundred years ago. Not even relevant. And he might want to brush up on the history of the Crusades. But hey, thanks Mr President if I ever run into anymore wayward Crusaders will definitely let authorities know.



This post was edited on 2/20 5:19 PM by Purdue97
 
I think the larger issue rather than mischaraceterizing ISIS is just not getting after them enough. IMO, remove the Kurdish group that is on the terror list from that list, and really start supporting them and the rest of the kurds. Also, really start financing and supplying Jordan more than we have. Yes, you are right, let them take care of it.

The issue is in that region ISIS cannot be allowed to grow anymore than they have. Once they get big enough, the only force getting them out is NATO(cough cough, the USA, Britain, and Australia).

Also, and this is more complex, but I think the USA needs to do an about face in Syria. I mean, we never learn, we replace Hussein, have a nightmare. With the Arab Spring, now we have a headache in Libya, Yemen, Syria, and Egypt. Really places for ISIS to get a strong presence in. I understand that the USA thinks that every place should have a democracy but it will not work in every country. Having a crappy dictator in place is not ideal, but they do take care of ISIS and other radical groups.
 
Re: yep

Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by qazplm:
it is.
And another one comes out.

Well, we always knew...
Another one what? I can think of one thing qaz and I have in common. FoxNews is more about entertainment and agreeing with their viewer base than reporting. They are one of many that are like that.
 
The large swath of territory they control is largely uninhabited. I don't see them having the numbers nor the organization to hold multiple cities with large population bases for long periods, particularly not brutally implementing Sharia.
 
Re: yep

Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by qazplm:
it is.
And another one comes out.

Well, we always knew...
Another one what? I can think of one thing qaz and I have in common. FoxNews is more about entertainment and agreeing with their viewer base than reporting. They are one of many that are like that.

No, not just one thing.

You might not like it, but Fox has become one of the most trusted name in news. Even Democrats have begun to admit it.

Former "news" outlets like NBC (LOL!) and others have repeatedly revealed their true intentions.

"Sources" like Al Jazeera are fooling some, but not many.
 
I understand that you do not want to make 1 billion or however many Muslims there are your enemy if you do not have to. Handling this huge issue of islamic terrorism is a huge difficult issue. Bush Jr. did the same thing. Personally I do not think a US President is anyone that should be saying what Islam is or is not. If I was Islamic I would resent it when Bush or Obama does it or any other western national leader does it. Going around defining Islam for Muslims probably creates a lot of Muslim enemies also. Maybe he would have some credibility there if in fact he was a Muslim, otherwise do not go telling other people who they are.
What Obama said about Christianity and the Crusades was a foolish thing to say. Many Christians suspect he is a Muslim already. Trying to compare what happened 1000 years ago the what is going on today is nonsense. If he wants to keep religion out of the issue then HE SHOULD KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE ISSUE. He waded right in with criticism of Christianity for something that happened 1000 years ago is not helpful at all. It sounds like Muslim talking points.
Obama has been nothing but a critic of US culture since day 1. Any observer can sense his hostility to conventional US culture and government. WHen 9/11 happened what did the pastor of his church do? He condemned the US. HIs wife was recorded saying something to the effect that for THE FIRST TIME (because so many were supportive of her husband)she was proud of America. Does that mean up until that time she ashamed the US? It seems to be a fair question to me. I would have to say that his job is more complicated because those on the right do not really trust him. I think he has earned the distrust.
You also have the issue of Iran and Israel. Iran has said repeatedly that they want to wipe Israel off the map. And now Iran is close to developing a nuclear weapon. All Israel sees is hostility from Obama. Can they trust Obama to make a deal to keep Iran from getting the atom bomb? I would not trust Obama with the future of my country and my children if I was them. He is just too hostile.If Israel does not trust Obama, that makes total war between Israel and Iran all that much more likely.
A lot of us on the right do not trust Obama for good reason. You do not need to find something that does not look logical and then just dismiss everything else that those on the right are trying to say. I would say that if you do then you are just not being honest.
 
Re: yep

Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by qazplm:
it is.
And another one comes out.

Well, we always knew...
Another one what? I can think of one thing qaz and I have in common. FoxNews is more about entertainment and agreeing with their viewer base than reporting. They are one of many that are like that.

No, not just one thing.

You might not like it, but Fox has become one of the most trusted name in news. Even Democrats have begun to admit it.
Ha, OK.

Waiting to hear what qaz and I have in common...
 
both in the military

both think Fox News is a joke.

Generally agree on some science things, not on others.

Purdue fans.

Men.
.
.
.
.
.
(secret Muslims!)
 
Re: yep


Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Originally posted by Purdue85:
Originally posted by qazplm:
it is.
And another one comes out.

Well, we always knew...
Another one what? I can think of one thing qaz and I have in common. FoxNews is more about entertainment and agreeing with their viewer base than reporting. They are one of many that are like that.

No, not just one thing.

You might not like it, but Fox has become one of the most trusted name in news. Even Democrats have begun to admit it.
Ha, OK.

Waiting to hear what qaz and I have in common...
I'm just reading the forum.

Al Jazeera is one. The rest is on record.
 
Re: both in the military


Originally posted by qazplm:
both think Fox News is a joke.

Generally agree on some science things, not on others.

Purdue fans.

Men.
.
.
.
.
.
(secret Muslims!)
Your service is appreciated but now you're using it for what purpose on an internet forum?

Your positions stand on their own, and your service doesn't get you greater standing. Nor should it be traded on an internet forum.

To play the "secret muslims" shows how slimy your arguments have become. Never have I suggested such a thing, but to take that side in an argument shows how desperate and pathetically weak your position has become.

You are to be pitied.
 
Re: both in the military

Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Still waiting to hear a relevant idea to solve the ISIS problem...
Cut him some slack. He's gathering information from "one of the most trusted name in news".
 
lol I'll bite

how am I "using my service?"

It literally is one of the things we have in common, but since you continually refuse to state what it is that we have in common (that's clearly so pejorative) and you keep citing Al Jazeera as if that should mean something without saying what it is, we are left to guess what it is.

I can't think of anything more hilarious than your pity.
 
Exactly. I have no idea what he is on the record as saying... He is very self important after all, so I should remember every word he posts...
 
He just likes putting words together that sound tough while remaining vague so some will think he has knowledge of something instead of providing the evidence of his ignorance.

Al Jazeera, how many times does he need to say it? Got it, Al Jazeera, now beat it.

Like too many who claim to be conservative all he understands is the anger. Ideas mean nothing, intellectual curiosity is too difficult, it's easier to distill everything into black and white or really just my side v your side. Islam, taxes, abortion, immigration... all down the line bad, bad, bad, bad... A simple, easy, world where all you need to say is Al Jazeera and the meaning should be instantly known, whatever that is for them.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
I'll bite! Actually, I admit I have no idea how to end this problem. I agree it is an ideology, mixed in with tribal and clan culture. At the same time it reminds me of the Naxi's and Hitler. What do you do. I have no idea!
 
yes, you do.

Originally posted by qazplm:
how am I "using my service?"

It literally is one of the things we have in common, but since you continually refuse to state what it is that we have in common (that's clearly so pejorative) and you keep citing Al Jazeera as if that should mean something without saying what it is, we are left to guess what it is.

I can't think of anything more hilarious than your pity.
It is you who played the service card. It is appreciated, but doesn't earn you any points beyond that. it doesn't make your opinions any more (or less) valued than those who do not.

There. Other than biting, and thinking you have my "pity" (you don't), you're now lowering yourself.

Stop. Or not. Either way, I don't care.

"I can't think of anything more hilarious than your pity." Other than your half-wit retorts.
 
how does

"both in the military" as a statement of something Gr8 and I have in common = "playing the service card?"

Someone stole your logic circuit a long time ago.
 
yep, it is news

what evidence do you have that it is not? Other than it's got a Muslim name?
 
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