Vince as 6th Man is better than Davis/Mathias as PG

[SnowLeopard]

I know a lot has been discussed about Davis playing the 1, but at 6-5 220, it may not be feasible to expect him to perform at his optimum levels while having to guard someone much quicker than he is. Maybe Raphael can drop 20 pounds and be effective on D at the 1 (and if he indeed manages to do that, then he has truly gone above and beyond the call of duty and deserves to join Kramer, Hummel and Cardinal on the podium as all-time glue players).

Mathias at the 1 will get blown out.

So while I think the idea of Davis or Mathias at the 1 is an intriguing one, the odds are that we will be giving up too much penetration.

The better option may be to have Vince come off the bench as instant offense. As 6th man, he would play starters minutes, like Harden used to do for Thunder and Manu for Spurs. Next year, he can start at 3.

This lineup would have enough outside shooting (Stephens at 38% and Davis was over 38% in conference play), and a slasher.

Hammons
Swanigan
Davis
Stephens
Hill or PJ

Bench
Edwards (starter's minutes, subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Mathias (7th man, subbing in at 1 and 2)
Haas

Deep reserve
Hill or PJ
Taylor

Redshirt
Cline
Weatherford
Smotherman


I think this will be a S16 - F4 contender for the next 3 seasons. Even life after Hammons and Davis looks sweet!
2016 lineup
Haas
Swanigan
Edwards
Stephens
PJ

First guard off the bench - Mathias
First forward off the bench - Smotherman
Backup C - Taylor

 

[dwhitebash11]

It looks somewhat good until I got to the part where you have Smotherman redshirting. That's just not going to happen. He's going to play a lot of minutes for us.

 

[paintball1979]

As I mentioned before, MP publicly stated that he talked to VE. Moving him to the three type position. He made a point to talk to VE because he is most likely impacted by the CS signing. IMO VE will start, and very unlikely he would not be on the floor to start the game. I don't understand why people would think otherwise with one of the best players we have.

 

[mathboy]

I know a lot has been discussed about Davis playing the 1, but at 6-5 220, it may not be feasible to expect him to perform at his optimum levels while having to guard someone much quicker than he is. Maybe Raphael can drop 20 pounds and be effective on D at the 1 (and if he indeed manages to do that, then he has truly gone above and beyond the call of duty and deserves to join Kramer, Hummel and Cardinal on the podium as all-time glue players).

Mathias at the 1 will get blown out.

So while I think the idea of Davis or Mathias at the 1 is an intriguing one, the odds are that we will be giving up too much penetration.

The better option may be to have Vince come off the bench as instant offense. As 6th man, he would play starters minutes, like Harden used to do for Thunder and Manu for Spurs. Next year, he can start at 3.

This lineup would have enough outside shooting (Stephens at 38% and Davis was over 38% in conference play), and a slasher.

Hammons
Swanigan
Davis
Stephens
Hill or PJ

Bench
Edwards (starter's minutes, subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Mathias (7th man, subbing in at 1 and 2)
Haas

Deep reserve
Hill or PJ
Taylor

Redshirt
Cline
Weatherford
Smotherman


I think this will be a S16 - F4 contender for the next 3 seasons. Even life after Hammons and Davis looks sweet!
2016 lineup
Haas
Swanigan
Edwards
Stephens
PJ

First guard off the bench - Mathias
First forward off the bench - Smotherman
Backup C - Taylor

I am not trying to be mean, but I have seen your perspective several times, and every argument you make starts with the incorrect assumptipon that our PG must guard their PG. It doesn't work that way. As long as we have one of our guards pick up the PG, then we are okay on defense. Hanging onto this misconception causes you to eliminate gsome combinations that might be really good on-court teams.

Let's say the opponent has a very quick, scoring PG. Mathias migh play the PG and he would bring the ball up the court, making the initial passes to get the ball in play. Then on defense, RayDay picks up the opponent's PG while Mathias guards their 2-guard. No rule says PG guards PG.

I also read arguments that say the PG has to be a speed position. Not so. It is true that many "fast" guards play the point just because it gets the ball in their hands, but there is no reason the PG must be a quick/fast player. Octeus was not quick. He was a crafty dribbler who could protect the ball from turnovers while getting it up court. That is what our PG needs to have in terms of skill - have good handles and be a crafty dribbler.

As for breaking the press, even the fastest of PG's will still get caught by a good press. The way you break it is through team work, not through speed. It is true that Octeus was able to anticipate and dribble out of some soft traps, but he could not avoid a hard press & trap defense in the backcourt by himself. We have to get better at breaking the press as a team, regardless of who is at Point.

 

[cprh9u]

It looks somewhat good until I got to the part where you have Smotherman redshirting. That's just not going to happen. He's going to play a lot of minutes for us.

I can't see Smotherman getting major minutes. Who would you play him over? Smotherman could possibly play the 2, 3 or 4 where we have 120 minutes per game. Stephens, Mathias, Davis, Edwards and Swanigan are going to command virtually all of those 120 minutes plus maybe some time at the 1. Haas and AJH will combine for 40 minutes per night at the 5. PJ and Hill are going to get some play at the 1 along with some combination of RD and/or Mathias. I just don't see where Smotherman fits in for more than 5 minutes a game. Not sure we will be a RS junior, but I can't see him getting a lot of minutes, and if so, at who's expense?

 

[cprh9u]

I am not trying to be mean, but I have seen your perspective several times, and every argument you make starts with the incorrect assumptipon that our PG must guard their PG. It doesn't work that way. As long as we have one of our guards pick up the PG, then we are okay on defense. Hanging onto this misconception causes you to eliminate gsome combinations that might be really good on-court teams.

Let's say the opponent has a very quick, scoring PG. Mathias migh play the PG and he would bring the ball up the court, making the initial passes to get the ball in play. Then on defense, RayDay picks up the opponent's PG while Mathias guards their 2-guard. No rule says PG guards PG.

I also read arguments that say the PG has to be a speed position. Not so. It is true that many "fast" guards play the point just because it gets the ball in their hands, but there is no reason the PG must be a quick/fast player. Octeus was not quick. He was a crafty dribbler who could protect the ball from turnovers while getting it up court. That is what our PG needs to have in terms of skill - have good handles and be a crafty dribbler.

As for breaking the press, even the fastest of PG's will still get caught by a good press. The way you break it is through team work, not through speed. It is true that Octeus was able to anticipate and dribble out of some soft traps, but he could not avoid a hard press & trap defense in the backcourt by himself. We have to get better at breaking the press as a team, regardless of who is at Point.

The OP starts by saying RD can't guard the 1. The OP is saying RD can't do it, and you are saying Mathias doesn't have to do it. You might want to argue his point that RD can't handle it, which he is trying to make. It seems you both agree Mathias shouldn't guard the 1.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Fun to talk about, but I am glad we have coach to fit the pieces in place.

 

[ejs1111]

I really enjoy reading this type of speculative discussion during the slow offseason!

That said- I agree with the OP. IMO VE will become the 6th man getting starter minutes (25+) and subbing for both CS and RD. I agree he is one of our best players- which is why he would still get 25 minutes, albeit off the bench. Starting the game means very little... its who finishes that matters, and VE will be a finisher.

I also do not agree with posters assuming DM or RD will 'work on their handles' and be capable of playing PG next year. That is simply NOT possible at the high D1 level. If you were not a PG to begin with... you cannot just spend one summer working on dribbling and become a PG. If it were that quick/easy- EVERY guard would be a PG. Its so much more than just handles. How to avoid traps, anticipate pressure, court vision, etc, etc. That said- I think both players could improve their handles and provide SPOT duty at the PG role. For example, when the other team goes big to combat our frontline, or if the team is playing a zone... then yes, ANYONE can dribble the ball up the court and start our offense. I personally see 30 minutes per game being split between Hill and PJ, hopefully one of them steps up and claims the spot. The remaining 10 minutes will be by committee when the matchups allow it. Just my 2cents.

Another earlier poster was correct about our PG not needing to guard the opposing PG. However, if we play a team with a small, quick, PG... we simply cannot have DM, VE, or RD playing PG during those times. Because- we will still need a smaller guard with lateral quickness (Hill, PJ, Weatherford) to guard that type of opposing PG. Which then obviously means they are playing PG also. I do not agree with posters claiming RD can just guard anyone. Yes he is excellent on D, and can guard 2, 3, and some 4's. But RD is too big (not quick enough) to guard small 1's. Could RD guard Yogi for example?? No he could not. Last season RD frequently was called for fouls up top for 'bodying up' smaller guards. The main reason for this was because its difficult to keep them in front of you! Those quick little guards will give our defense trouble... but they give ANY defense trouble!

Boiler UP!

 

[ejs1111]

Fun to talk about, but I am glad we have coach to fit the pieces in place.

I completely agree! fun to speculate... but most posters here (myself included) are just armchair head coaches! I'm glad I'm not the one to determine PT for everyone.

 

[PU52Chevy]

Hammons
Swanigan
Davis
Mathias
Hill

Bench
Haas
Edwards (starter's minutes, subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Smotherman (subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Stephens
PJ

Deep reserve
Weatherford
Taylor
*Note: J. Taylor is my favorite player and is so athletic that could be playing big minutes some games at the 3,4 or 5 and some games not at all depending on match-ups, injuries and foul trouble, 2017 will be his year to shine)

Redshirt
Cline
Eifert


Going to be fun to watch!
Boiler Up!

 

[GodFamilyCountryPurdue]

That is simply NOT possible at the high D1 level. If you were not a PG to begin with... you cannot just spend one summer working on dribbling and become a PG.

Smooge says hi.

 

[SwingAndSwear]

However, if we play a team with a small, quick, PG... we simply cannot have DM, VE, or RD playing PG during those times. Because- we will still need a smaller guard with lateral quickness (Hill, PJ, Weatherford) to guard that type of opposing PG.

I think that we will see CMP do a better job of dictating match ups instead of reacting to match ups. Purdue will have 2 if not 3 rim protectors and athletic defenders to help out. On the other end of the court, let that small PG try to stop RD on the block....

 

[Casey and his Brother]

Smooge says hi.

Does he also say "I did not ever play PG at Purdue, so why am I being mentioned here?" Does he also say "Are you seriously comparing Dakota Mathias to me?"

This is just like the old "Terone Johnson can play PG" threads of yesteryear.

 

[Chuchumutha]

Hammons
Swanigan
Davis
Mathias
Hill

Bench
Haas
Edwards (starter's minutes, subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Smotherman (subbing in at both 3 and 4)
Stephens
PJ

Deep reserve
Weatherford
Taylor
*Note: J. Taylor is my favorite player and is so athletic that could be playing big minutes some games at the 3,4 or 5 and some games not at all depending on match-ups, injuries and foul trouble, 2017 will be his year to shine)

Redshirt
Cline
Eifert


Going to be fun to watch!
Boiler Up!

You're getting closer. I would sub Vince for Ray in your starting line up. I like the idea of having DM, VE and Biggie (our three best passers) on the floor to start the game. KS and Ray first off the bench (and playing starters minutes) as instant O and D with zero drop off. Haas and PJ next. Everyone keeps trying to force Ray on the court to start. He's a true leader and would accept this if best for the team. Also, I do not want Ray guarding opposing PGs. He is our stopper on the other teams primary scorer and moving him weakens two defensive positions.

 

[GodFamilyCountryPurdue]

Does he also say "I did not ever play PG at Purdue, so why am I being mentioned here?" Does he also say "Are you seriously comparing Dakota Mathias to me?"

This is just like the old "Terone Johnson can play PG" threads of yesteryear.

You said it was impossible to become a PG at a high level in one year. He went from never playing point to being one in the NBA.

 

[SNU0821]

I can't see Smotherman getting major minutes. Who would you play him over? Smotherman could possibly play the 2, 3 or 4 where we have 120 minutes per game. Stephens, Mathias, Davis, Edwards and Swanigan are going to command virtually all of those 120 minutes plus maybe some time at the 1. Haas and AJH will combine for 40 minutes per night at the 5. PJ and Hill are going to get some play at the 1 along with some combination of RD and/or Mathias. I just don't see where Smotherman fits in for more than 5 minutes a game. Not sure we will be a RS junior, but I can't see him getting a lot of minutes, and if so, at who's expense?

Well dwhitebash11 also thinks Wetherford is going to be an important piece of the puzzle for you guys next year, so take his posts for what they're worth...

 

[Kesselschmiede]

Well dwhitebash11 also thinks Wetherford is going to be an important piece of the puzzle for you guys next year, so take his posts for what they're worth...

Kinda like how your posts are taken here? Actually no, dwb11 has more substance and thought in his posts than your GED will ever give you.

 

[SNU0821]

Smooge says hi.

He was also in a completely different category of player than Davis or anyone else at the guard spots.

 

[Kesselschmiede]

He was also in a completely different category of player than Davis or anyone else at the guard spots.

Well at least you are consistent. Consistently stupid, but consistent regardless.

 

[SNU0821]

Well at least you are consistent. Consistently stupid, but consistent regardless.

Yawn. So you think Davis is good enough to play in the NBA? Honestly? Highly, highly doubtful. Moore was one of the best guards I've watched in the B10 for a good while. He was solid defensively and killer on offense and a guy I hated to play against. He constantly hit big time buckets when you needed them. Davis is great defensively. Offensively leaves a lot to be desired. He'll probably play professionally, but it's going to be overseas.

 

[SNU0821]

Kinda like how your posts are taken here? Actually no, dwb11 has more substance and thought in his posts than your GED will ever give you.

Tell me this.....Do you honestly believe Wetherford is going to have any sort of impact next year? If you do, then I'll go ahead and put you on ignore (probably will anyway) because you have zero ability to realistically talk basketball.

 

[88btfu92]

It looks somewhat good until I got to the part where you have Smotherman redshirting. That's just not going to happen. He's going to play a lot of minutes for us.

Ok, if you think 5-10 minutes is a lot. I do agree that he won't redshirt but probably should. If he could take a year off and work on being the defensive, glue-type player that RD has become then he could see some of his departed minutes. He's athletically gifted for sure but does not have the basketball skill to take other more skilled players minutes.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

He was also in a completely different category of player than Davis or anyone else at the guard spots.

Smooge made incredible progress as a ball handler, passer,and defender during his time at Purdue. He came in as a gifted scorer and left as a complete guard.

Purdue has some guys who aren't point guards, but aren't starting from ground zero, either. All should be working on their point guard skills, regardless of whether they will actually play the position. I don't think it's out of the question that Purdue will start a converted point guard. Painter will try to get his best 5 players on the court.

 

[Chuchumutha]

No way your senior captain & BIG DPOY comes off the bench. Talk about diluting his leadership influence

In all probability, you're right. This is just my opinion of what I would like to see. Ray would still finish games and be one of our top 3 in minutes. I just think most on this board recognize our weakness is at the PG position and are coming up with line up scenarios that do anything they can to avoid starting PJ or Hill. I personally don't think anyone on our roster is capable of doing what Painter wants out of his PG, except PJ and Hill. So given that, and the fact that AJ, Biggie and Vince are fixtures (again IMO), that leaves one spot. And I think it's critical you have a sniper on the floor with our bigs. I prefer Mathias over Stephens because of his passing and handle.

 

[dwhitebash11]

Ok, if you think 5-10 minutes is a lot. I do agree that he won't redshirt but probably should. If he could take a year off and work on being the defensive, glue-type player that RD has become then he could see some of his departed minutes. He's athletically gifted for sure but does not have the basketball skill to take other more skilled players minutes.

5-10 minutes per game usually results in a solid role player, more towards the 10 than the 5, but his minutes aren't garbage minutes either. They are times when we just seem lazy out there. He brings that explosiveness. He ignites the whole team, crowd. Smotherman can play any position 2-4. He brings energy that nobody else can match on our squad, plays arguably better defense than anyone on our team not named Davis. And I don't think he's limited offensively. The kid has always had a very nice stroke, good looking form, and doesn't shoot horribly either. It just seems that he doesn't quite believe in himself, or is afraid to miss a shot, resulting in getting benched. I think if Smotherman can work on his offensive game, he can be a game changer for us.

 

[CRBoiler]

I think people are under rating DM's handle, and also I am betting he is getting into the best shape of his life right now. I realize this is not the most popular prediction, but I think DM will spend some significant minutes at PG this year. I could actually see DM in top shape transforming into a Dellavadova type player. Painter will want him on the floor along with AJ, CS, VE, and RD.

 

[nagemj02]

From what I saw last season, Edwards and Mathias have better passing instincts than Davis. I think Davis can guard opposing 1's, but I think Edwards and Mathias can make more plays off of the pass than Davis when you have any of these three bring the ball up the court.

Johnny Hill will probably bring the ball up the court and dictate the tempo more often than anyone else, but I think P.J. Thompson, Edwards, Mathias, and on occasion Davis will be able to as well.

As for the sixth man idea, I could see that working as long as Edwards played starter-type minutes (25+ a game). It's a tough decision and obviously one that can be changed for any given game. I think most would probably want at least Edwards, Davis, and Hammons on the court to start each game, and Swanigan as well if he's as good as advertised. Everyone else is up for debate (and competition) for who's the best option to fill those one or two other starting spots, IMO.

 

[purdue4sure]

From what I saw last season, Edwards and Mathias have better passing instincts than Davis. I think Davis can guard opposing 1's, but I think Edwards and Mathias can make more plays off of the pass than Davis when you have any of these three bring the ball up the court.

Johnny Hill will probably bring the ball up the court and dictate the tempo more often than anyone else, but I think P.J. Thompson, Edwards, Mathias, and on occasion Davis will be able to as well.

As for the sixth man idea, I could see that working as long as Edwards played starter-type minutes (25+ a game). It's a tough decision and obviously one that can be changed for any given game. I think most would probably want at least Edwards, Davis, and Hammons on the court to start each game, and Swanigan as well if he's as good as advertised. Everyone else is up for debate (and competition) for who's the best option to fill those other one or two other starting spots, IMO.

Over the summer, I would love to hear that PJ is practicing bringing the ball up court against Davis every day. It would help both of them prep for this fall.

 

[nagemj02]

Over the summer, I would love to hear that PJ is practicing bringing the ball up court against Davis every day. It would help both of them prep for this fall.

agreed

I think P.J. just started playing with that travel team he was selected (supposed to start in on the 27th, correct?) to in the past two or three days. Does anyone know how he has played so far?

 

[purdue4sure]

agreed

I think P.J. just started playing with that travel team he was selected (supposed to start in on the 27th, correct?) to in the past two or three days. Does anyone know how he has played so far?

I just checked. According to the J&C article, he left for China on the 28th. Couldn't find an update, but they'll probably play their first game tomorrow.

http://www.jconline.com/story/sport...j-thompson-playing-china-usa-eagles/27046151/

 

[Matt18Jones]

Ray Davis can guard small, quick PGs and probably is a top 10 option to do so in the conference, if not top 5.

Not sure where this pessimism on Ray D guarding PGs comes from.

 

[boilerzz]

Ray Davis can guard small, quick PGs and probably is a top 10 option to do so in the conference, if not top 5.

Not sure where this pessimism on Ray D guarding PGs comes from.

My concern isn't with Ray guarding opposing PG's. It is that if Ray has to guard opposing PG's he can't be matched up with other guys like Layman and JBJ, where he was quite effective last year. We'd then needs someone else guarding those guys if Ray is checking Yogi and Tremble.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

My concern isn't with Ray guarding opposing PG's. It is that if Ray has to guard opposing PG's he can't be matched up with other guys like Layman and JBJ, where he was quite effective last year. We'd then needs someone else guarding those guys if Ray is checking Yogi and Tremble.

On the other hand, as often as Purdue switches, Davis might end up guarding those guys a fair amount even if he starts out guarding the point. I don't think that Purdue will switch 1-4 if Biggie is in the line-up, but they'll still probably switch 1-3, especially if and when they aren't starting a true point guard.