Surpised to see no discussion on Baltimore

[qazplm]

Another good video about Ferguson/Baltimore style of policing.

View embedded media

The problem is that folks think that cops just "go where the crime is," and many, like Gr8, love the idea of broken windows policing. But here's the problem quoting from another website:

"If police concentrate their patrols in a certain area and assume every young man they see is a potential or probable criminal, they will conduct more searches — and make more arrests. Which means a high percentage of young men in that neighborhood will have police records. Which, in turn, provides a statistical justification for continued hyper-aggressive police tactics."

So, people cite 18 arrests or 20 arrests or what have you, as if it's all but certain that each of those arrests were legit, based on actual evidence. Even in the face of the one arrest we actually have evidence for being totally based on nothing. No probable cause, no evidence of a crime committed, nothing found on his person. Once they determine he is "a thug" then they'll speak to how he didn't deserve to die, but the passion/conviction isn't there the same as if the person was squeaky clean. And yet go to a well-to-do neighborhood, those kids are doing drugs, dealing drugs, but they aren't getting arrested or caught. There is little evidence that there is a racial component overall to drug use. There's SOME evidence that there is some racial component to the types of drugs used, but that's more about geography. Meth is easier to make in rural areas, crack in urban areas. Yet minorities get arrested more for drug related offenses. Is that because they do it more, or is it because the cops spending more time looking for it in minority communities under the idea of "that's where the crime is?"

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying the reason there are more inner-city, urban, black neighborhood arrests is because the cops are there more, and if they patrolled, say, my neighborhood the number of arrests would equal out? That if the cops spent as much time watching me (I'm 12 years older than Gray!) as they did Gray, I'd have 18 arrests on my record too? I'd bet your next year's salary against that one, because the problem boils down to what I said above: disaffection (I'm not disaffected); unemployment (I'm employed and don't have time for dealing drugs); education (I've got a masters so I don't need to peddle MJ to make a living). You could tail me 24/7 and I promise I wouldn't have 18 arrests because I would've learned my lesson after one or two. Figure out why a guy who's been arrested 4 times gets arrested a fifth, let alone 17 or 18 times, and you'll have your answer. It won't be because of disproportional patrolling, either.

 

[qazplm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying the reason there are more inner-city, urban, black neighborhood arrests is because the cops are there more, and if they patrolled, say, my neighborhood the number of arrests would equal out? That if the cops spent as much time watching me (I'm 12 years older than Gray!) as they did Gray, I'd have 18 arrests on my record too? I'd bet your next year's salary against that one, because the problem boils down to what I said above: disaffection (I'm not disaffected); unemployment (I'm employed and don't have time for dealing drugs); education (I've got a masters so I don't need to peddle MJ to make a living). You could tail me 24/7 and I promise I wouldn't have 18 arrests because I would've learned my lesson after one or two. Figure out why a guy who's been arrested 4 times gets arrested a fifth, let alone 17 or 18 times, and you'll have your answer. It won't be because of disproportional patrolling, either.

I'm saying what a lot of folks are saying, including folks who do criminology for a living. It's what my undergrad degree is in. So I have a tiny bit of knowledge on this subject. Broken Windows is not the only theory out there, nor is it without critics. And yes, when you look some place a whole lot or when you focus on one group a whole lot, then that's where you are going to get most of your action at. If I spend all my time at place X, then my actions/results are going to be tied to place X. That's not hard to figure out.

Would they "equal out?" Depends on the crime. Drug related crimes? You bet your rear end they would, because statistically blacks are no more likely to be drug users than whites. Would one person be equal to any other random person? No, because that's a silly argument, no one but you is making it. As a group though would it equal out? In many ways yes. Just like the fact that blacks and hispanics are pulled over and searched more often even though they are no more likely to have drugs in their cars than whites. Just like stop and frisk in NYC where the police blatantly said, we are doing this more in minority communities. If they stopped and frisked in other communities, they'd have more issues in those communities. But you don't look over your shoulder whenever you drive like I do. You haven't repeatedly been stopped and searched for drugs even though you don't drink, smoke or do anything remotely illicit. I have. And I'm by no means an exception.

You keep quoting those 18 arrests as if they are legit arrests even when faced with evidence that the one arrest you actually have evidence on was in fact not legit. What crime had he committed? What probable cause was there? He was picked up, and arrested based on nothing that should have led to him being arrested. But even that fact doesn't cause you to question any of the 18 arrests. Because in your world, the police don't bother you unless you've done something wrong, because that's how YOUR world works.

It ain't how the whole world works.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Perhaps you missed the part about "disaffected, unemployed, undereducated." It's not black and white. You're saying patrolling the inner city neighborhood means more arrests in the inner city. Duh. I'm asking if you think patrolling my neighborhood, which is an upscale neighborhood of well-educated, employed or retired folks (who happen to be predominantly white with a number of Hispanics and a few blacks) would result in the same number of arrests because patrolling equal time leads to equal arrests? Do you think that?

It doesn't matter if he was arrested 18 times, 8 times or 80 times. It should take once, or twice, or three times at most to stop the behavior and rehabilitate this person. Let's say 75% of his arrests were bogus... he's still been arrested four or five times legitimately. Why? Why does it take that much interaction with law enforcement by age 25 to realize something is wrong with the way you're leading your life? Yeah, I'm white. I'm relatively privileged in that regard. I got a careless driving ticket for $300+ when I was 25 because I was well above the speed limit and the officer thought I was racing. You know what I don't do anymore? I don't speed that way and drive like an idiot. It took once. Why is that? Why is my behavior so much different from the behavior of the guy that gets arrested 14 times for the same offense, even if 90% of them are illegitimate, why does it take TWICE? Is it because I have less melanin in my skin than Freddie Gray did?

Answer those questions, and you'll get somewhere. Focusing on policing and holding these six cops accountable will make people feel good and maybe send a message to the other PDs about rough rides and abuse in general. You know what it's NOT doing? It's not fixing the problem. Fix the police. Yep.

Then have the community look at itself and figure out why Freddie Gray was ever in that situation in the first place. THAT answer isn't inside the BPD.

 

[qazplm]

Perhaps you missed the part about "disaffected, unemployed, undereducated." It's not black and white. You're saying patrolling the inner city neighborhood means more arrests in the inner city. Duh. I'm asking if you think patrolling my neighborhood, which is an upscale neighborhood of well-educated, employed or retired folks (who happen to be predominantly white with a number of Hispanics and a few blacks) would result in the same number of arrests because patrolling equal time leads to equal arrests? Do you think that?

It doesn't matter if he was arrested 18 times, 8 times or 80 times. It should take once, or twice, or three times at most to stop the behavior and rehabilitate this person. Let's say 75% of his arrests were bogus... he's still been arrested four or five times legitimately. Why? Why does it take that much interaction with law enforcement by age 25 to realize something is wrong with the way you're leading your life? Yeah, I'm white. I'm relatively privileged in that regard. I got a careless driving ticket for $300+ when I was 25 because I was well above the speed limit and the officer thought I was racing. You know what I don't do anymore? I don't speed that way and drive like an idiot. It took once. Why is that? Why is my behavior so much different from the behavior of the guy that gets arrested 14 times for the same offense, even if 90% of them are illegitimate, why does it take TWICE? Is it because I have less melanin in my skin than Freddie Gray did?

Answer those questions, and you'll get somewhere. Focusing on policing and holding these six cops accountable will make people feel good and maybe send a message to the other PDs about rough rides and abuse in general. You know what it's NOT doing? It's not fixing the problem. Fix the police. Yep.

Then have the community look at itself and figure out why Freddie Gray was ever in that situation in the first place. THAT answer isn't inside the BPD.

The inner cities aint all black, so yeah it's not ALL a race thing, but it most certainly is partially a race thing. Yes, patrolling one area nearly exclusively is going to mean that a large chunk of your arrests are coming from that area. You can't arrest where you aren't, and you are going to arrest where you are. Why is that so controversial to you?

I don't know why you are focused on "the same number." No one said the numbers would be equal on all things, I did say when you focus on one area, your numbers will be disproportionate, and they will be. If they only focused on rich, white areas, their numbers would also be disproportionate there too.

You talk about it not being black or white, then you act like it is black or white. If it isn't exactly the same, then it isn't disproportionate in your mind. And yes, if 75% of his arrests are bogus, then you are talking a handful of arrests. How many of those then lead to convictions? An arrest is not evidence of anything other than some police office legitimately thinks there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed. THAT DOESN'T MEAN A CRIME WAS COMMITTED.

Black folks get pulled over not for being "well above the speed limit" they get pulled over for the color of their skin. It doesn't matter if you are rich. I know a law profession, served in the Clinton administration, is easily worth several million dollars. Got pulled over and arrested simply because he drove a nice car. No actual charges, no trial, he was booked and released, nothing happened. To you, that's an arrest, and he must of been doing something wrong.

If the police are a constant presence in the community then yes, the police are going to have more interactions with you, and some of those are going to be negative...and some of them will be incorrect even if they are not "bogus."

And yet, this is exactly my point through this, you are SO focused on the fact that he had some run-ins with the law. You continue to ignore that there is a pattern of police abuse in Baltimore and the country, that THIS arrest was based on absolutely NOTHING, and that he died between an arrest based on nothing and his arrival at the police station.

Focus on the police first, have them stop killing, abusing and messing with folks, then get back to me on discussing whether or not poor folks or minorities need to fix things. Your focus is on don't do anything that arouses police suspicion and you won't ever have to worry about it, which is complete ignorance to a certain reality that you will never have to inhabit and clearly can't wrap your head around.

 

[ecouch]

This thread reminded me of Mitt Romney.

While stumping for unfettered capitalism he mentioned simply borrowing money from your parents to attend Harvard. Problem solved.

I'm reading the same vibe.

 

[ecouch]

Perhaps you missed the part about "disaffected, unemployed, undereducated." It's not black and white. You're saying patrolling the inner city neighborhood means more arrests in the inner city. Duh. I'm asking if you think patrolling my neighborhood, which is an upscale neighborhood of well-educated, employed or retired folks (who happen to be predominantly white with a number of Hispanics and a few blacks) would result in the same number of arrests because patrolling equal time leads to equal arrests? Do you think that?

It doesn't matter if he was arrested 18 times, 8 times or 80 times. It should take once, or twice, or three times at most to stop the behavior and rehabilitate this person. Let's say 75% of his arrests were bogus... he's still been arrested four or five times legitimately. Why? Why does it take that much interaction with law enforcement by age 25 to realize something is wrong with the way you're leading your life? Yeah, I'm white. I'm relatively privileged in that regard. I got a careless driving ticket for $300+ when I was 25 because I was well above the speed limit and the officer thought I was racing. You know what I don't do anymore? I don't speed that way and drive like an idiot. It took once. Why is that? Why is my behavior so much different from the behavior of the guy that gets arrested 14 times for the same offense, even if 90% of them are illegitimate, why does it take TWICE? Is it because I have less melanin in my skin than Freddie Gray did?

Answer those questions, and you'll get somewhere. Focusing on policing and holding these six cops accountable will make people feel good and maybe send a message to the other PDs about rough rides and abuse in general. You know what it's NOT doing? It's not fixing the problem. Fix the police. Yep.

Then have the community look at itself and figure out why Freddie Gray was ever in that situation in the first place. THAT answer isn't inside the BPD.

Readers Digest Condensed Version.

Why do people break the law?

Profound.

You've retarded the conversation.

 

[ecouch]

Are liberals starting to see what effects all this stoking of racial hatred is turning into? You cant just keep dividing people. This is the result.

You know, we have a lot of out in the open racists around here.

Where did this fellow scurry off to?

 

[ecouch]

..."

Honest question.

How can someone get arrested, a ride in the now famous van, 18 times and never get a conviction?

His guilt rate is 0%, even after death.

 

[qazplm]

Honest question.

How can someone get arrested, a ride in the now famous van, 18 times and never get a conviction?

His guilt rate is 0%, even after death.

Has he really never been convicted of anything? I hadn't read anything on that one way or the other. If true, it won't matter to some folks, they believe if you've been arrested x number of times you MUST have done something.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I have read that he plead guilty to some number of one-count drug-related charges, while others were dropped.

 

[qazplm]

I have read that he plead guilty to some number of one-count drug-related charges, while others were dropped.

From what little I can tell, he only went to prison once for possession with intent to deliver but no info on the type of drugs involved. But the information on CNN is somewhat nebulous/vague.

Snopes has mildly more detailed information but it cites multiple sources with differing accounts. It comes down in the end to saying basically that he had a lot of arrests for drug stuff, but not lot a lot of convictions, charges were dismissed/dropped, or he was acquitted, but he appears to have had at least one conviction. Snopes seems to suggest that his conviction was when he was 18, but a fair reading of it doesn't necessarily make that definitive.

 

[ecouch]

Has he really never been convicted of anything? I hadn't read anything on that one way or the other. If true, it won't matter to some folks, they believe if you've been arrested x number of times you MUST have done something.

I was wrong. He plea bargained a few times upon further research.

That doesn't change the scenario. I would imagine it is pretty easy to get a plea deal when you get arrested for posession, intent to distribute, loitering, possession of para, lying, loitering...charge stacking.

 

[qazplm]

I was wrong. He plea bargained a few times upon further research.

That doesn't change the scenario. I would imagine it is pretty easy to get a plea deal when you get arrested for posession, intent to distribute, loitering, possession of para, lying, loitering...charge stacking.

Oh yes, look I've supervised prosecutors (military). They didn't intentionally stack charges to force a deal, but a young enthusiastic prosecutor will load up as many charges as they can. One of mine was came to me with an almost 10 page charge sheet. I had to ixnay it and it ended up being two pages. But I suspect many prosecutors load up a charge sheet not intending to actually prosecute much of the charges, but simply looking to coax out a deal to something.

But here's the thing, I think the greater point is that it doesn't matter. He could have been convicted of zero charges, and folks would simply look at 18 arrests and assume he must have done something. the level of blind faith in police among some is a barrier to an honest look at the issues here.

 

[Purdue97]

Well here are my thoughts on this situation:

Obama, not a few months ago praised the BPD as implementing best national practices and making the recomended changes from the Task Force on 21st Century policing. BPD is lead by minorities, and its government in general has been heavy, if not 100% Democrat since the late 60's. This was after Ferguson when the white police force and government being racist was the issue. The answer is more diversity. Now, of course, he is starting an investigation on civil right offenses from the BPD, his example on what/who to follow. Obama now wants America to soul search. He needs to be more direct to the communities he was an active community leader in, and tell them to soul search.

The problem is not the inner city schools. They are adequate to get a HS degree and to prepare one for college. Sure some public schools are 'better' than others-so what? I have been to Philly's and Chicago's worst through 10th grade-I turned out ok. Tested out over the 90th percentile in math and sciences and was middle of the pack in English Vocab-and that lower score was on me. I simply would not read anything outside of class work.

Do not point out that inner city schools are bad and point to the testing scores and graduation rates are so low. How can anyone say the schools are bad when a large percentage do not regularly attend? And people in the city want more money invested in after school programs-well ok, but how about going to regular school first? And guess what-it is not the Police Departments Job or the teachers job or the school admins job to make sure the students are signed up, registered, enrolled, and showing up to school.

The issue is the roughly 50% chronic truancy rate in the major urban areas. Inner city youth do not regularly go to school, do not graduate, and when not in school at that age with all that free time trust me it is easy to earn a long police record, get multiple girl pregnant, or get caught up in drugs by 18.

Sure high school was boring. I saw little point in equations and could not relate to it, hated the lack of autonomy, nor did I see the reason I would need any of it, thought I knew everything etc. Like they say youth is wasted on the young. Does not mean my MOM and DAD did not make sure I went, did my homework, talked to me about my day, etc.

So now in the cities you have a lot of people in their late teen years that did not graduate, got a GED, or barely got by with it, and there lack of basic skills is readily apparent when they attempt to fill out a job application. Companies before they move into an area, study the logistics and are well aware of the lack of skill/knowledge in an area, and often move or open up factory/offices etc somewhere else. So now with an unskilled, and lower educated population that a good percentage of it has a police record is stuck without opportunity or mobility.

And now the police, are responsible for policing the area. I think they do the best they can, are obviously far from perfect. Petty crime and/or gangs are now a way out for a lot of these people, and the police go into their neighborhoods to do their job. Disgruntled and stuck people now blame the police for interfering in their lives and racism for where they are at. People now want the police to be more integrated in communities, be involved in coaching and after school mentors-not really sure that is their job. The police are not the kids parents nor are they school teachers.

Obama said that indifference has consequences. I could not agree with that statement more, but not in how he meant it. He meant when America turns a blind eye to problem areas(inner cities), it leads to issues that we all saw in Baltimore and Ferguson. I look at it as when parents have kids, and are indifferent to what they are doing while growing up, indifferent to raising them, and their kids are indifferent to learning(either skill or academic) or following any leader/authority figure growing up-well, there are consequences. And they are not good.

And to have someone like Ray Lewis to go into to try to become a community leader is a complete joke. Very little if anything he can do. I read Obama wants to start an inner city initiative, much like Clinton's foundation for world development. More power to him, hope he makes some headway. IMO, the last thing that the inner city youth need is a bunch of millionaires telling them and preaching to them what they need to be doing. That is not their job. IIt is Mom and Dad's job though..

 

[ecouch]

Well here are my thoughts on this situation:

Obama, not a few months ago praised the BPD as implementing best national practices and making the recomended changes from the Task Force on 21st Century policing. BPD is lead by minorities, and its government in general has been heavy, if not 100% Democrat since the late 60's. This was after Ferguson when the white police force and government being racist was the issue. The answer is more diversity. Now, of course, he is starting an investigation on civil right offenses from the BPD, his example on what/who to follow. Obama now wants America to soul search. He needs to be more direct to the communities he was an active community leader in, and tell them to soul search.

The problem is not the inner city schools. They are adequate to get a HS degree and to prepare one for college. Sure some public schools are 'better' than others-so what? I have been to Philly's and Chicago's worst through 10th grade-I turned out ok. Tested out over the 90th percentile in math and sciences and was middle of the pack in English Vocab-and that lower score was on me. I simply would not read anything outside of class work.

Do not point out that inner city schools are bad and point to the testing scores and graduation rates are so low. How can anyone say the schools are bad when a large percentage do not regularly attend? And people in the city want more money invested in after school programs-well ok, but how about going to regular school first? And guess what-it is not the Police Departments Job or the teachers job or the school admins job to make sure the students are signed up, registered, enrolled, and showing up to school.

The issue is the roughly 50% chronic truancy rate in the major urban areas. Inner city youth do not regularly go to school, do not graduate, and when not in school at that age with all that free time trust me it is easy to earn a long police record, get multiple girl pregnant, or get caught up in drugs by 18.

Sure high school was boring. I saw little point in equations and could not relate to it, hated the lack of autonomy, nor did I see the reason I would need any of it, thought I knew everything etc. Like they say youth is wasted on the young. Does not mean my MOM and DAD did not make sure I went, did my homework, talked to me about my day, etc.

So now in the cities you have a lot of people in their late teen years that did not graduate, got a GED, or barely got by with it, and there lack of basic skills is readily apparent when they attempt to fill out a job application. Companies before they move into an area, study the logistics and are well aware of the lack of skill/knowledge in an area, and often move or open up factory/offices etc somewhere else. So now with an unskilled, and lower educated population that a good percentage of it has a police record is stuck without opportunity or mobility.

And now the police, are responsible for policing the area. I think they do the best they can, are obviously far from perfect. Petty crime and/or gangs are now a way out for a lot of these people, and the police go into their neighborhoods to do their job. Disgruntled and stuck people now blame the police for interfering in their lives and racism for where they are at. People now want the police to be more integrated in communities, be involved in coaching and after school mentors-not really sure that is their job. The police are not the kids parents nor are they school teachers.

Obama said that indifference has consequences. I could not agree with that statement more, but not in how he meant it. He meant when America turns a blind eye to problem areas(inner cities), it leads to issues that we all saw in Baltimore and Ferguson. I look at it as when parents have kids, and are indifferent to what they are doing while growing up, indifferent to raising them, and their kids are indifferent to learning(either skill or academic) or following any leader/authority figure growing up-well, there are consequences. And they are not good.

And to have someone like Ray Lewis to go into to try to become a community leader is a complete joke. Very little if anything he can do. I read Obama wants to start an inner city initiative, much like Clinton's foundation for world development. More power to him, hope he makes some headway. IMO, the last thing that the inner city youth need is a bunch of millionaires telling them and preaching to them what they need to be doing. That is not their job. IIt is Mom and Dad's job though..

Here is what I read from your post.

Well here are my thoughts on this situation:

Obama...

I stopped after that.

Get over it.

 

[Purdue97]

Get over what?

Not twisting anything he said at all-it was what he said. In one case he is flatly wrong, in another case I infer something different from what he said. But hey, people want to wonder why the lot of certain demographics never changes. Pretty much spelled it out for you. But keep looking to blame others and the system but never look in the mirror-works great!

And of course your ignorant know it all ass will not even hear or in this case read the post out.

Great idea- keep trying and wanting higher taxes to fund more government programs, push for diversity especially in police departments, and hope for heavy democrat governments. Working really well in places like Baltimore/Chicago/Detroit etc etc

 

[qazplm]

Get over what?

Not twisting anything he said at all-it was what he said. In one case he is flatly wrong, in another case I infer something different from what he said. But hey, people want to wonder why the lot of certain demographics never changes. Pretty much spelled it out for you. But keep looking to blame others and the system but never look in the mirror-works great!

And of course your ignorant know it all ass will not even hear or in this case read the post out.

Great idea- keep trying and wanting higher taxes to fund more government programs, push for diversity especially in police departments, and hope for heavy democrat governments. Working really well in places like Baltimore/Chicago/Detroit etc etc

yes, nothing worse than diversity huh? Those "demographics" should stop wanting equal treatment because those cops, and everyone else are doing as good a job as possible, it's really the fault of the "demographics" that they have any issues.

 

[threeeputtt]

Get over what?

Not twisting anything he said at all-it was what he said. In one case he is flatly wrong, in another case I infer something different from what he said. But hey, people want to wonder why the lot of certain demographics never changes. Pretty much spelled it out for you. But keep looking to blame others and the system but never look in the mirror-works great!

And of course your ignorant know it all ass will not even hear or in this case read the post out.

Great idea- keep trying and wanting higher taxes to fund more government programs, push for diversity especially in police departments, and hope for heavy democrat governments. Working really well in places like Baltimore/Chicago/Detroit etc etc

 

[threeeputtt]

I re-post from a few weeks ago because it is that simple and at the same time that complicated because I 100% agree spending more $$$ accomplishes almost NOTHING!

"We can increase $$$ in a lot of areas and not really hit the problem just the symptoms. We could spend more on education, job training, more police, etc. However, until you solve the family problem in this country where parents teach: values/respect, how to handle your money, know where the kids are at night, help with school work and get them through high school, teach the dangers of all drugs (alcohol is the #1 abused drug in the world) we might as well pee the $$$ down the drain.

Add this observation: Former Clinton advisor William Galston sums up the matter this way: you need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.

The problem is so massive I wouldn't know where to start except it is one person at a time and it isn't $$$ because that isn't working."

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Add this observation: Former Clinton advisor William Galston sums up the matter this way: you need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.
"

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

 

[threeeputtt]

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

Unfortunately, there is also correlation as well as causation, the stats say so even if not 100% direct. You and I have seen this with our own eyes if we admit it. Our constant increasing spending of $$$ proves that isn't the answer as things have only gotten worse Talk to any sociologist.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I am certain that there is correlation. The statistics bear that out. Causation? Not every poor person is a high school drop out. Not ever high school dropout is poor. Not ever child-bearing teenager is poor. Not even every child-bearing, early-marrying, high school dropout is poor. There are a lot of circumstances that can make one poor. You and I don't have all the answers.

I agree that throwing money at the problem nor at the poor is the solution, but it's not as simple as we'd like it to be. If it were, there'd be measures in place to make sure everyone graduates, no one gets pregnant in HS and no one could marry before the age of 20.

 

[threeeputtt]

I am certain that there is correlation. The statistics bear that out. Causation? Not every poor person is a high school drop out. Not ever high school dropout is poor. Not ever child-bearing teenager is poor. Not even every child-bearing, early-marrying, high school dropout is poor. There are a lot of circumstances that can make one poor. You and I don't have all the answers.

I agree that throwing money at the problem nor at the poor is the solution, but it's not as simple as we'd like it to be. If it were, there'd be measures in place to make sure everyone graduates, no one gets pregnant in HS and no one could marry before the age of 20.

I think we agree more than disagree. Society is a mess!

 

[qazplm]

Unfortunately, there is also correlation as well as causation, the stats say so even if not 100% direct. You and I have seen this with our own eyes if we admit it. Our constant increasing spending of $$$ proves that isn't the answer as things have only gotten worse Talk to any sociologist.

Things have gotten worse? How so? From what period to what period?

Poverty levels are lower than they were since the legislation of the 60s. Consistently so. Sometimes as much as half lower.

What other metrics would you like? minority high school grad rates? rates of the black middle class? crime rates?

You've not remotely done anything to say "spending money = making things worse" nor have you even begun to talk about whether you mean any money, some money, what programs you think should get money, what programs shouldn't.
You just talk in gross generalities.

 

[threeeputtt]

Things have gotten worse? How so? From what period to what period?

Poverty levels are lower than they were since the legislation of the 60s. Consistently so. Sometimes as much as half lower.

What other metrics would you like? minority high school grad rates? rates of the black middle class? crime rates?

You've not remotely done anything to say "spending money = making things worse" nor have you even begun to talk about whether you mean any money, some money, what programs you think should get money, what programs shouldn't.
You just talk in gross generalities.

All I am trying to focus of the family structure with its endless problems. The stats speak for themselves by Mr. Galston. History repeats itself many times. The poor have always been with us. The rich also. Poverty rates? Don't be so enamored with "minority HS grad rates" "crime rates". I mentioned NOTHING about race, are you defensive? This is a poor black, white, Asian, and Hispanic issue. Government figures can lie and liars can figure, this involves MANY metrics. Including not just poverty but, divorce, GDP (general economy) etc. Also, I don't begin to know where to attack the problem, as mentioned. I do know the family issues mentioned above are THE start, not $$$.

 

[qazplm]

All I am trying to focus of the family structure with its endless problems. The stats speak for themselves by Mr. Galston. History repeats itself many times. The poor have always been with us. The rich also. Poverty rates? Don't be so enamored with "minority HS grad rates" "crime rates". I mentioned NOTHING about race, are you defensive? This is a poor black, white, Asian, and Hispanic issue. Government figures can lie and liars can figure, this involves MANY metrics. Including not just poverty but, divorce, GDP (general economy) etc. Also, I don't begin to know where to attack the problem, as mentioned. I do know the family issues mentioned above are THE start, not $$$.

What stats? You've not listed a one. What are the divorce rates then and now? What does that have to do with government assistance or lack of assistance? What is the GDP now and then? What does that have to do with the level of economic assistance?

You are simply throwing out words and then saying "things are getting worse" with zero proof that things are actually getting worse.

Tell you what, pick the five most important metrics to you, then tell me what they were before the Great Society programs, and what they are now. Then tell me how they link, if they do, to government aid/money.

Yes, minority HS grad rates matter, crime rate matters because there are clear links between both and poverty. Sure, poor whites matter too, so how are their crime rates? HS grad rates?

 

[threeeputtt]

What stats? You've not listed a one. What are the divorce rates then and now? What does that have to do with government assistance or lack of assistance? What is the GDP now and then? What does that have to do with the level of economic assistance?

You are simply throwing out words and then saying "things are getting worse" with zero proof that things are actually getting worse.

Tell you what, pick the five most important metrics to you, then tell me what they were before the Great Society programs, and what they are now. Then tell me how they link, if they do, to government aid/money.

Yes, minority HS grad rates matter, crime rate matters because there are clear links between both and poverty. Sure, poor whites matter too, so how are their crime rates? HS grad rates?

The current family breakdown per Mr. Galston is what I am talking about. Those facts are from that administration and they are horrible. I don't believe they have gotten better from the 1990's quote, not 1960's as you imply. I have witnessed this 1st hand in my extended family, food banks and soup kitchens I have worked at. You can do the research and tell me what you think with any number of metrics and interpret them, if it is not worse I will believe your work. It is way more complicated and over my head. Tell me what you find. If you don't believe the family is important, that is OK also. This is not a minority issue as you seem to want to imply. After that, have a nice day (and I REALLY do mean that) because I do other things and I don't lurk on this board all day.

 

[qazplm]

The current family breakdown per Mr. Galston is what I am talking about. Those facts are from that administration and they are horrible. I don't believe they have gotten better from the 1990's quote, not 1960's as you imply. I have witnessed this 1st hand in my extended family, food banks and soup kitchens I have worked at. You can do the research and tell me what you think with any number of metrics and interpret them, if it is not worse I will believe your work. It is way more complicated and over my head. Tell me what you find. If you don't believe the family is important, that is OK also. This is not a minority issue as you seem to want to imply. After that, have a nice day (and I REALLY do mean that) because I do other things and I don't lurk on this board all day.

Those facts are a snapshot in time...you've used that snapshot to make long-term arguments with no basis. The REASON I selected the 60s is that was when the Great Society programs you lambaste started. So one would look at before an event, and then after an event, to determine what, if any, effect that event has had on the relevant proposition. So picking the 90s doesn't make much sense. In fact, in total, we had welfare reform in the 90s, so if things are worse than the 90s, then that's AFTER we made it harder for folks to get welfare and other aid...which would be the opposite of your point.

 

[threeeputtt]

Those facts are a snapshot in time...you've used that snapshot to make long-term arguments with no basis. The REASON I selected the 60s is that was when the Great Society programs you lambaste started. So one would look at before an event, and then after an event, to determine what, if any, effect that event has had on the relevant proposition. So picking the 90s doesn't make much sense. In fact, in total, we had welfare reform in the 90s, so if things are worse than the 90s, then that's AFTER we made it harder for folks to get welfare and other aid...which would be the opposite of your point.

I am sorry you apparently don't agree with Mr. Galston, after all he is a bureaucrat such that you and I rely on government stats. I presume when he made those comments to Mr. Clinton they are reliable. My real point is more about the familial problems that have persisted over time. Aid and welfare are less necessary if you heal it. I am not opposed to spending more tax dollars but, it treats the symptoms. I am guessing my rant on always spending more is what got your reaction. We are told we are not spending enough. I hear things like children go to bed hungry. Why? We have school lunch programs, food stamps, food banks, food pantry's, soup kitchens, plus many other charities. Why are kids going hungry? Facts and metrics? No, an opinion and observation. The family/parents either don't know how to access the services, or they are poor nutritionists among other failures. You might be surprised I question how big our military budget is with 800 worldwide bases and $100 billion cost that I have read about (I have no ides if that includes salaries etc). I question how we spend all of our $$$.

Anyway, I guess we have beaten this horse to death. I appreciate your comments.

 

[qazplm]

I am sorry you apparently don't agree with Mr. Galston, after all he is a bureaucrat such that you and I rely on government stats. I presume when he made those comments to Mr. Clinton they are reliable. My real point is more about the familial problems that have persisted over time. Aid and welfare are less necessary if you heal it. I am not opposed to spending more tax dollars but, it treats the symptoms. I am guessing my rant on always spending more is what got your reaction. We are told we are not spending enough. I hear things like children go to bed hungry. Why? We have school lunch programs, food stamps, food banks, food pantry's, soup kitchens, plus many other charities. Why are kids going hungry? Facts and metrics? No, an opinion and observation. The family/parents either don't know how to access the services, or they are poor nutritionists among other failures. You might be surprised I question how big our military budget is with 800 worldwide bases and $100 billion cost that I have read about (I have no ides if that includes salaries etc). I question how we spend all of our $$$.

Anyway, I guess we have beaten this horse to death. I appreciate your comments.

I'd say it's like talking to a wall with you but I feel like the wall would at least respond to some of my points.

 

[threeeputtt]

I'd say it's like talking to a wall with you but I feel like the wall would at least respond to some of my points.

Likewise my friend. Whatever you say is fine with me.

 

[purdue4sure]

His history? Zero convictions for a violent offense. Only one arrest for assault, but no conviction, and we tend to find folks innocent til proven guilty in this country. The vast majority of his interactions with the law are for things like having dice, or gambling related crimes. IOW, a low-level, non-violent offender, at worst.

So only those who are character defect free are worthy of not being killed while in police custody?

And MAY? You still playing that tune? At this point?

He was innocent until proven guilty, but the cops are guilty without a trial. Got it.

 

[qazplm]

He was innocent until proven guilty, but the cops are guilty without a trial. Got it.

Whether the cops are guilty will be determined in court thankfully but we don't need a court to know he went iinto that van alive and came out dead. Thankfully and finally we will actually get a trial to sort it out with at least a chance of someone being held responsible.

 

[Noodle]

Honest question.

How can someone get arrested, a ride in the now famous van, 18 times and never get a conviction?

His guilt rate is 0%, even after death.

While it's an extreme case, the recent two-part This American Life show on police addressed at length what went on in Miami Gardens after they split from Miami and formed their own police force. One guy was arrested dozens of times for trespassing--at the convenience store where he worked! Now, in those instances he pled guilty to trespassing, but by all accounts there was not one single legitimate arrest let alone conviction. Again, I highly recommend listening to the show as it is very enlightening.

One very interesting story was of an officer in Las Vegas who responded to shots fired, eventually finding himself in a Wal-Mart, alone with who he thought was a single, active shooter. His training (including training he had conducted for other officers) taught him that most active shooters were young white males. He turned the corner and suddenly found himself face to face with a young female standing in an aisle. His hesitation, largely a result of his training which taught him that he was looking for a young, white male, almost resulted in the officer being killed by the woman when she opened fire. Turned out there were two active shooters--the young white female and her husband (a young white male). It was not until he went through training on implicit biases and the like that he realized that his own implicit biases almost resulted in his own death.

Another fascinating piece in the show dealt with a producer who watched the Eric Garner video with her close friend who happens to be a police officer. The producer and the officer were both surprised how they each had such disparate views of what happened in that case. In fact, I was left with the sense that the chasm between their polar opposite views of what happened may have even harmed their friendship.

Not to harp, but the This American Life episodes will give anyone a lot to think about on this topic--including some abhorrent police actions, as well as some cities that have really made a lot of progress.

 

[qazplm]

While it's an extreme case, the recent two-part This American Life show on police addressed at length what went on in Miami Gardens after they split from Miami and formed their own police force. One guy was arrested dozens of times for trespassing--at the convenience store where he worked! Now, in those instances he pled guilty to trespassing, but by all accounts there was not one single legitimate arrest let alone conviction. Again, I highly recommend listening to the show as it is very enlightening.

One very interesting story was of an officer in Las Vegas who responded to shots fired, eventually finding himself in a Wal-Mart, alone with who he thought was a single, active shooter. His training (including training he had conducted for other officers) taught him that most active shooters were young white males. He turned the corner and suddenly found himself face to face with a young female standing in an aisle. His hesitation, largely a result of his training which taught him that he was looking for a young, white male, almost resulted in the officer being killed by the woman when she opened fire. Turned out there were two active shooters--the young white female and her husband (a young white male). It was not until he went through training on implicit biases and the like that he realized that his own implicit biases almost resulted in his own death.

Another fascinating piece in the show dealt with a producer who watched the Eric Garner video with her close friend who happens to be a police officer. The producer and the officer were both surprised how they each had such disparate views of what happened in that case. In fact, I was left with the sense that the chasm between their polar opposite views of what happened may have even harmed their friendship.

Not to harp, but the This American Life episodes will give anyone a lot to think about on this topic--including some abhorrent police actions, as well as some cities that have really made a lot of progress.

Speaking of progress:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-cleveland-justice-department-reach-policing-deal-044830721.html

Some of the things agreed to:

Community policing (no more broken windows BS)
Truly independent review of police actions
Training on racial stereotyping and biases
Modernization of police tech
Much more detailed rules on when, and when not, to use deadly force (or any force at all).

 

[Noodle]

Speaking of progress:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-cleveland-justice-department-reach-policing-deal-044830721.html

Some of the things agreed to:

Community policing (no more broken windows BS)
Truly independent review of police actions
Training on racial stereotyping and biases
Modernization of police tech
Much more detailed rules on when, and when not, to use deadly force (or any force at all).

It's worked pretty well here in Cincinnati: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/05/19/loretta-lynch-visit/27606525/

But, we unfortunately still have our share of shootings and other violence. One huge problem that I am sure is not unique to Cincinnati is the unwillingness of witnesses to come forward out of fear of being targeted. In a recent case a guy only got 15 years for murdering two people--15 years because no one would come forward to testify against him. This was all preceded by an earlier mistrial during which a witnesses brother was murdered on the very day that witness testified. Then, a week later, the murderer's own brother was killed, with everyone seeming to acknowledge that all of it was related to the trial. No idea how you change that. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/courts/2015/05/18/craig-mcintosh-sentencing/27371177/

 

[qazplm]

It's worked pretty well here in Cincinnati: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/05/19/loretta-lynch-visit/27606525/

But, we unfortunately still have our share of shootings and other violence. One huge problem that I am sure if not unique to Cincinnati us the unwillingness of witnesses to come forward out of fear of being targeted. In a recent case a guy only got 15 years for murdering two people--15 years because no one would come forward to testify against him. This was all preceded by an earlier mistrial during which a witnesses brother was murdered on the very day that witness testified. Then, a week later, the murderer's own brother was killed, with everyone seeming to acknowledge that all of it was related to the trial. No idea how you change that. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/courts/2015/05/18/craig-mcintosh-sentencing/27371177/

Well, nothing solves a problem 100 percent. The no snitching phenomenon is weird. It's present all over though. Cops have it with the thin blue line. Criminals have it. Victims even have it. It seems to be something fundamentally human that for whatever reason resists coming forward when doing so would, most of the time, serve both you and your community. It's something victims/communities and cops both have to fight against.

 

[Noodle]

Well, nothing solves a problem 100 percent. The no snitching phenomenon is weird. It's present all over though. Cops have it with the thin blue line. Criminals have it. Victims even have it. It seems to be something fundamentally human that for whatever reason resists coming forward when doing so would, most of the time, serve both you and your community. It's something victims/communities and cops both have to fight against.

Not too hard to understand, though, when they kill your brother the same afternoon you testify as a witness at trial. Perhaps the part I really don't understand at all, however, is why witnesses and their families are threatened, but not the judge, jurors or prosecutors (at least not to the same extent as witnesses are threatened). Is it because the criminals feel that those people are just doing their jobs? Or maybe that they're not part of the community, but the witnesses are?