Surpised to see no discussion on Baltimore
- Thread starter SCBoiler
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In conclusion: Mean old liberals, attempting to divide people by "stoking racial hatred", caused the riots in Baltimore. Got it.
My thought in every situation like this is the same.
Regardless of the motivating reason, I cannot understand how violence and rioting are going to help achieve a goal or convince people to listen to your message or to change the way that they think.
Then, I see these headlines juxtaposed with the ever increasing death toll in Nepal and my heart breaks...
Regardless of the motivating reason, I cannot understand how violence and rioting are going to help achieve a goal or convince people to listen to your message or to change the way that they think.
Then, I see these headlines juxtaposed with the ever increasing death toll in Nepal and my heart breaks...
So how are liberals "stoking racial hatred?" So it's just liberals who racially hate right? Riling up the brown folks?
Or do you think it's possible that there were underlying issues that came to a boil when yet another person suffered injury or death at the hands of Baltimore police?
Do you know that over 100 people have successfully sued Baltimore police for various injuries/harms? Not complaints, not suits filed, actual winning of lawsuits against the police.
Does that not suggest to you there's a problem? Is not the normal, but unfortunate, reaction of humans to constant issues like this to lash out when their patience is broken and their faith gone?
When all that happens, again, when a black man goes into a police van (and we still don't have evidence he actually committed any crimes by the way, other than maybe possession of a small knife) and comes out well on the road to death, and all that happens is the police involved are suspended?
No one is defending criminal/violent acts. The folks who are looting or vandalizing should be caught and punished. But I find it unsurprising that the same folks you'd expect are more concerned about the looting and vandalizing that happened over a day or two, versus the police abuses that have happened over decades. The latter doesn't happen if the former didn't.
Usually violence and rioting are borne out of frustration and anger. Now, even justified anger/frustration doesn't, usually, mean violence and rioting are also justified. And in this case, it certainly isn't. But it's pretty understandable. When people are fed up, and think that normal, societally-sanctioned routes no longer work, they seek out alternate routes.
You cant just keep dividing people. This is the result.
Truer words cannot be said, but I would guess my thoughts on this differ quite a bit from yours. First off, my interpretation does not deal with "stoking of racial hatred" but rather deals with issues of income inequality, different grades of social and criminal justice, second class citizenship, providing hope for the future instead of continued despair, etc...It seems to me that we may have reached a critical mass if you will when it comes to the haves and the have nots in this country when we see the events of the past couple of years.
I think John Angelos, the COO of the Baltimore Orioles hit the nail on the head regarding the situation not only in Baltimore but all around the country. I'll let you read his statement here. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/orioles-john-angelos-baltimore-protests-mlb
My idea of normal Americans differ greatly from his. In my opinion the
...........?.................................
Sorry my definition of a normal American doesn't include individuals burning their city, their neighbors businesses and over a million dollars worth, 144 vehicles. Now I bet they want to use my hard earned tax money to rebuild their community. Respect is earned, they have not earned my respect or deserve my aid. The only bright spot is the mother that grabbed her son and sent him packing home. I was happy to see how the young man respected his mother. He didn't lash back at her but showed at least some respect for her. A small glimmer of hope.
Yes there has been a bunch of destroyed property in the last fee months. The theme is the same. No matter how the spin goes there is only one reason, defiance of authority. Race aside. Who runs Baltimore? Are the authorities wrong sometimes absolutely.
But don't break the law and none of this happens.
We can increase $$$ in a lot of areas and not really hit the problem just the symptoms. We could spend more on education, job training, more police, etc. However, until you solve the family problem in this country where parents teach: values/respect, how to handle your money, know where the kids are at night, help with school work and get them through high school, teach the dangers of all drugs (alcohol is the #1 abused drug in the world) we might as well pee the $$$ down the drain.
Add this observation: Former Clinton advisor William Galston sums up the matter this way: you need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.
The problem is so massive I wouldn't know where to start except it is one person at a time and it isn't $$$ because that isn't working.
Add this observation: Former Clinton advisor William Galston sums up the matter this way: you need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.
The problem is so massive I wouldn't know where to start except it is one person at a time and it isn't $$$ because that isn't working.
Hasn't Baltimore been run by democrats and liberals for decades? I guess then that they must be the oppressors? Maybe the goof hearted democrat mayors keep getting fooled by the mean ol sneaky chiefs of police?
Is the Mayor the oppressor? Who exactly is the oppressor? If the police are the oppressors then why can't the elected mayors do something about that? It would seem to me to be more productive to try to find a way to make the police a positive force in the community than just to burn everything down. If they keep this up, they will end up turning Baltimore into Detroit 2.0. If that is what they want then they can probably achieve that. If the businesses are the oppressors then they can burn them all down and chase them out of town. Maybe then it will be better.
Is the Mayor the oppressor? Who exactly is the oppressor? If the police are the oppressors then why can't the elected mayors do something about that? It would seem to me to be more productive to try to find a way to make the police a positive force in the community than just to burn everything down. If they keep this up, they will end up turning Baltimore into Detroit 2.0. If that is what they want then they can probably achieve that. If the businesses are the oppressors then they can burn them all down and chase them out of town. Maybe then it will be better.
Unfortunately, it sounds like all this started from a bunch of HS kids wanting to reenact The Purge.
That's awfully utopian. Looting isn't borne out of frustration; it is borne of greed and opportunity. Burning places that have nothing to do with the problem is borne of ignorance.
Protest the police, clash with them, etc.... I get it. Burn stores and housing projects for seniors? You're just a criminal at that point.
It's not remotely utopian. It's human nature. Yes, violence comes from frustration. Criminals can do things out of frustration. At any rate some folks are worried about broken windows more than broken spines. As threeputt says, there are massive issues here that routinely get ignored that are much greater than one night of rioting that gets all of the attention.
Absolutely right, but none of that is important because a CVS burned down. We spend more money on prisons, less on education. We have folks who mock before and after school programs, who think getting free breakfast at school is somehow a moral failing (a republican politician actually said this), job training? lol. We don't need more police we need better trained, and better accountable police, and we need police departments who work with communities and not treat them like the enemy. And yes there are things parents need to do better too, and the communities need to do better too, but as long as there are systemic issues and barriers in place, then folks aren't going to feel like fixing their own house is important.
It is utopian in the sense that you are providing tacit approval for their actions by attempting to justify the rationale behind them. There is no excuse for the actions of these young people, and there are many leaders in the Baltimore community who recognize that and are doing something about it.
Baloney. You do this all of the time. I've said in this thread:
"The folks who are looting or vandalizing should be caught and punished."
"Now, even justified anger/frustration doesn't, usually, mean violence and rioting are also justified. And in this case, it certainly isn't."
The fact that I understand the emotion and the causes as something more than "just a bunch of thugs" does not equal "tacit approval" and if you actually listened to those leaders you cite, they understand the same thing. They don't condone it, but they understand it, and they share the concerns.
And they are also more concerned about broken spines than broken windows.
OK, obviously I didn't read your other posts close enough. Be frustrated with the situation, but in many of the cases of the individuals on the street, I'm guessing there's a lot of individual responsibility being shirked while blaming the system. Baltimore's a broken city and has been for decades, but that frustration coupled with the death of a 20-something time offender in police custody doesn't justify their behavior.
Edited to add: I'm also a little bent about the "broken spines vs. broken windows" concern. It's crass of these leaders to diminish the pain the actions of these rioters is causing the community. Livelihoods of owners of small stores and franchise operators, as well as homes and future homes are being destroyed. People's means and ability to get to and from work to earn paychecks that keep food on the table are stopped. It's not just "broken windows". It's somewhat embarrassing to see this outrage on behalf of a man who was arrested 18 times for offenses up to distribution of narcotics, assault etc., while we're minimizing the impact the riots in his name are having on innocents.
The storyline that's being pushed is a militarized police force using aggressive tactics causing harm to and in some cases killing "unarmed black men." The other parallel consistent through all of these is people with criminal records failing to comply with the direction of the police. Both sides of the story deserve attention, and the teaching point for society is similar to that shown when Craig fights Debo in Friday... "... but you LIVE. You live to fight another day."
Edited to add: I'm also a little bent about the "broken spines vs. broken windows" concern. It's crass of these leaders to diminish the pain the actions of these rioters is causing the community. Livelihoods of owners of small stores and franchise operators, as well as homes and future homes are being destroyed. People's means and ability to get to and from work to earn paychecks that keep food on the table are stopped. It's not just "broken windows". It's somewhat embarrassing to see this outrage on behalf of a man who was arrested 18 times for offenses up to distribution of narcotics, assault etc., while we're minimizing the impact the riots in his name are having on innocents.
The storyline that's being pushed is a militarized police force using aggressive tactics causing harm to and in some cases killing "unarmed black men." The other parallel consistent through all of these is people with criminal records failing to comply with the direction of the police. Both sides of the story deserve attention, and the teaching point for society is similar to that shown when Craig fights Debo in Friday... "... but you LIVE. You live to fight another day."
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The "pain" of broken windows and a couple of burned stores is about things, money. Those things can be replaced, insurance will cover the damage, and they can move on. The pain of a constant state of police abuse, and the pain of someone being arrested, for what appears to be nothing, who doesn't appear to have been suspect of anything, and then killed while in police custody, for no reason, is far, far greater.
This is from a reporter from deadspin who went and anonymously interviewed some of the Baltimore cops, one of those cops said this:
I blame the department and let me tell you why. They praise rookie officers. They’ll go around making a 100 arrests a month, and they’ll praise them. These rookie officers will do anything to get an arrest because they want more praise, you know what I’m saying? This is the result of it. They arrested Gray for some bullshit. That arrest was the weakest thing I’ve seen in my life. They do things like that and then what we see happening now happens. They can say anything to anyone to lock them up because they want an arrest. I don’t think they hurt him or messed him up, that’s what I truly think, but I do think they should have called a medic.
This is a cop saying this.
Friday was about two individuals fighting. This is about an institution of the state fighting civilians, mistreating civilians, and even killing civilians without due process, or any process. You talk about someone being "arrested 18 times."
how many of those arrests were legit? How many of them led to convictions? how many of those convictions were legit?
You and others appear to require absolutely innocent victims to be outraged at police brutality.
And finally, this quote from Hillary I absolutely agree with:
"We can't separate the unrest we see in our streets from the cycle of poverty and despair that hollowed out those neighborhoods,"
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It's not just money. It's money which provides things for other people's lives. With the city shut down, folks aren't working and there are people who live paycheck to paycheck. Three days unplanned means someone doesn't get fed or someone doesn't get diapers because a 20 time offender got in a fight, failed to comply (again) and something terrible happened, we don't know what yet.
As to the rest, I'll opt out of the rest of this discussion as I've said my piece already.
As to the rest, I'll opt out of the rest of this discussion as I've said my piece already.
Now it's 20 times (not 18) and an offender, not just arrests, which mean nothing? And there was a fight?
Next thing you know, he will have been carrying baby he'd taken a bite out of while threatening to set off a WMD at a daycare center next to vet's office filled with week old puppies.
I'll end with a quote from Fox News:
We’ve got a major American city that has decades of turmoil within this neighborhood,” Smith said. “Decades! You’ve heard the stories from Doug McKelway a little while ago of people being arrested for nothing, a violent crackdown for years and years, of them feeling powerless and hopeless and nobody listening to what they were saying. One quarter of the youth locked up. Clearly there is a big problem. Then all of a sudden an African-American man is taken into a vehicle and he comes out of it and dies. And you get nothing from authorities except a suspension. And those who would do harm take an opportunity to do harm. And here we are. But it is what has happened between all of that and today that has led to this. There is no escaping that reality."
It'll be interesting to see what shakes out from the fact that three of the four cops charged with manslaughter or higher, including the one charged with murder two, are black. On one hand, the media has made something of the white cops vs. black men, however the protests and such might be more accurately described as cops vs. black men... I wonder if it'll temper the enthusiasm for the protests, rhetoric, etc., that there are several black cops involved?
Absolutely right, but none of that is important because a CVS burned down. We spend more money on prisons, less on education. We have folks who mock before and after school programs, who think getting free breakfast at school is somehow a moral failing (a republican politician actually said this), job training? lol. We don't need more police we need better trained, and better accountable police, and we need police departments who work with communities and not treat them like the enemy. And yes there are things parents need to do better too, and the communities need to do better too, but as long as there are systemic issues and barriers in place, then folks aren't going to feel like fixing their own house is important.
I have to disagree with about everything stated above. However, I will stick with the first sentence. You seem to be implying that nothing really bad happened, only a CVS got burned down, nothing to worry about since they have insurance anyway.
I read that 98 cops were injured. Some of those might be broken spines. I read that one person was killed near the CVS. I read that 200 businesses were damaged and that the local gangs were protecting the black owned businesses and directing the rioters to asian and arab owned businesses. I also read that many of damaged businesses did not have insurance.
This riot did a lot of damage to the city of Baltimore. I do not believe it will end well. I remember going to Detroit at dozen years after the riots there. Most of the businesses that were damaged in that city never came back. You had block after block of boarded up businesses.
Also, the only thing worse that a city with cops is a city without cops to everyone but the toughest people in town. Not a pleasant place to live. I think you will find that the only way the cops can copes with this is just to stay at the station and stop patrolling.
I have to disagree with about everything stated above. However, I will stick with the first sentence. You seem to be implying that nothing really bad happened, only a CVS got burned down, nothing to worry about since they have insurance anyway.
I read that 98 cops were injured. Some of those might be broken spines. I read that one person was killed near the CVS. I read that 200 businesses were damaged and that the local gangs were protecting the black owned businesses and directing the rioters to asian and arab owned businesses. I also read that many of damaged businesses did not have insurance.
This riot did a lot of damage to the city of Baltimore. I do not believe it will end well. I remember going to Detroit at dozen years after the riots there. Most of the businesses that were damaged in that city never came back. You had block after block of boarded up businesses.
Also, the only thing worse that a city with cops is a city without cops to everyone but the toughest people in town. Not a pleasant place to live. I think you will find that the only way the cops can copes with this is just to stay at the station and stop patrolling.
15 officers were injured, not 98. None of them had broken spines. No one died from the riots. The CVS was cleared before it was damaged. http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/01/news/companies/cvs-baltimore-riot-looting/index.html
So I don't know what you were reading, but none of it was correct. So yes, I think the fact that, again, a person died at the hands of police, and the long history of police brutality and other issues in Baltimore pale by comparison to a CVS being burned down.
Yes, the only two options available to cops are to stay in the station, OR do things like rough rides and other incidents of brutality. There isn't possibly a third way of doing things.
You may want to check out Mr. Gray's history. I'm not saying it justifies anything the cops MAY have done to him while in custody. It doesn't. But don't tell me it doesn't speak to his character.
His history? Zero convictions for a violent offense. Only one arrest for assault, but no conviction, and we tend to find folks innocent til proven guilty in this country. The vast majority of his interactions with the law are for things like having dice, or gambling related crimes. IOW, a low-level, non-violent offender, at worst.
So only those who are character defect free are worthy of not being killed while in police custody?
And MAY? You still playing that tune? At this point?
14 of his 18 arrests are for possession and roughly half with intent to distribute (indicating a larger quantity), not "gambling related crimes." Precisely one arrest for illegal gambling. If you're going to nit-pick me for saying "20" vs. 18 above, I'll call you out for this.
March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)
March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)
That's not what I've read. I've read he had multiple arrests for possession of dice, and for something to do with a gambling card, possibly falsified/fake. None of which I see on your list, which I have no idea where you got it from. I'll have to go back and find where I found my source. But let's assume what i read was inaccurate, and yours is accurate.
1. So what? What's the point of what he had been arrested for in the past? How does that make what happened to him in this incident better or worse?
2. Arrests do not equal convictions. I don't trust the police enough to believe that everyone one of his arrests were legit. And since my understanding is he certainly wasn't convicted of all those things, at least some of his arrests did not lead to charges for one reason or another. Heck, we had 100s of people arrested, detained for several days, and then released without charges, including some journalists by the Baltimore police. They all now have arrest records. Does that mean each of them get lower protections in the future from police brutality?
Not one little bit, just like you pointing out that he'd only been arrested 18 times instead of the 20 I said didn't make a damn bit of difference in the discussion but you felt the need to point it out anyway.
Not one little bit?
"coupled with the death of a 20-something time offender in police custody doesn't justify their behavior."
"Three days unplanned means someone doesn't get fed or someone doesn't get diapers because a 20 time offender got in a fight, failed to comply (again) and something terrible happened."
Strikes me it makes "a damn bit of difference to you" since you mentioned it not once but twice. So which is it, doesn't matter or does?
An 18-time offender shouldn't be held up as a martyr by any community, but that also doesn't mean police brutality and/or murder/wrongful death should go unpunished. Take from that whatever you will.
If he's killed arrested for an offense that isn't actually an offense with no probable cause to arrest him, then yes, he's a martyr. You don't have to be squeaky clean to be a martyr.
And the fact that you and others seem overly-focused on him is part of the problem too, just like the over focus on the one-day riot versus the overwhelming problems of police brutality in Baltimore.
Yes, when too many folks focus on the wrong thing in a democracy it absolutely can be part of the problem.
Focusing on what leads someone to get arrested 18 times is the wrong thing? I'd say it's exactly the problem... Disaffection, lack of education, unemployment... But again, I'm part of all of that according to you.
It didn't lead to him getting arrested. There is no evidence thes cops even knew the guy. There IS evidence there was no probable cause to arrest him and that he committed no crime...the state's attorney said so. Of course even though we know that arrest was bs you just assume the rest were legit.
The fact he was killed has nothing to do with how many times he was arrested. Nothing at all.
The fact he was killed has nothing to do with how many times he was arrested. Nothing at all.
I don't know if you are part of the problem or not, but you do conflate social justice with criminal justice. Someone is on the hook for this death, he didn't crush his own wind pipe and snap his own vertebrae.
What I have noticed about the far rights reaction to this scenario is a glossing over of police tactics in poor cities. Folks want to bring up his 18 arrests. 18 arrests, without a single conviction? That is a red flag. Illegal arrest this time. At the height of stop and frisk in NY I remember a brave patrolman who audio recorded his morning roll call. 5 tickets and 1 arrest per day or you won't get a promotion. Well, guess what? That leads to a loitering ticket for sitting on your porch that leads to a search that finds a roach in you pocket. Boom, criminal. Plea that shit down and get paid. Manufacturing criminals isn't justice.
It is probably hard for you to understand being poor or a minority. Imagine a walk down to the corner shop for a gallon of milk being a scenario where you hope you don't get hassled by the police.
Have you ever been stopped for looking suspicious?
